Fish Crisis! Dying! Fish Have Velvet, High Nitrites

[sweetyness]

I recently inherited my daughter's 60 gal. fish tank when she moved out for college. (I have a koi/goldfish pond) She has semi-agressive fish in it: 2 catfish, 2 bala sharks, 3 tetras, 2 rosy reds, 2 rubber-lipped pochastamus, 2 clown loaches & a couple striped bottom feeders, (forgot name). All fish 1/2" - 4 1/2". All lots of tank plants. She has had the tank about 8 mos., the double-wheel biological filter has been working great. Also have a heater and air bubbles. She added another rubber-lipped awhile ago(3-4 wks?)and did not quarantine it, (I know, bad). She also did a cleaning with 50% water change before she left 2 weeks ago.

Last night I came home to the spotted catfish dead, as well as the new rubber-lipped poc., and the other fish zooming around looking very stressed. Color was poor in the rosy reds, which suggests stress to me. I tested the water, ammonia .025; nitrites high at 4,(I blieve, it was the top color of my test kit color card); and PH at 8. The fish had white dust all over them, and I diagnosed their ailment as Velvet. The website I diagnosed on said to use Malachite Green. I ran down to the local Petco, (only thing open that late), and bought:

Mardel Malacide: Malachite Green & Chitosan, (bonding agent) for Velvet
NutraFin Cycle: Beneficial bacteria to help with Nitrite problem (clerk suggested turning up heat & adding this instead of water change)
A PH stabilizer: Only used 1/2 treatment
--Turned heat up to 80 and treated as per directions.

This morning the other catfish was dead, but the rest of the fish were acting normal again, an dcolor in the rosy reds was back. The 2 bala sharks were very quiet in the corner, I assumed resting from a stressful night. I know from treating my koi pond for ick previously that they are very agitated right after treatment. The 2 striped bottom feeders are missing, I hope just hiding. Ammonia was 0; PH down at 6.5-7.0, but nitrites still very high, although seems it may have gone down .5ppm. I also read that the charcoal filters should have come out prior to treatment, so I took them out. The Malacide says to treat every other day for 3 days, should I treat again tonight since the filters were in when I treated last night?

My mother called me at noon today to say one of the bala sharks had died, and the other looked close to it. Also one of the clown loaches is dead. I feel helpless as I am at work, but also do not know what to do to help stop the death if I can! I have been searching the web a bit, and found that Malachite Green should not be used on scalesless fish like the loaches and catfish. Aargh!

Please offer any suggestions to help. I do not get off work for 2 hours, and it takes me an hours to get home. My instinct is to do a 50% water change, as I believe it is the water, and probably not the velvet that is killing them. But I am not a freshwater fish or tank water expert. Your help is appreciated!!
Thanks! Jana

 

[rdd1952]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

The 50% water change to lower the nitrite level sounds good. After that, do smaller ones, 25% or so up to a 3 or 4 times a day until you can get the nitrite back down to around .25.

When you inherited the tank, how long had it been running and did you have to take it down and set it back up again? It sounds like the tank is cycling but f it had been set up for a while, that shouldn't have been a problem.

Another potential issue is that soome medications will wipe out the bacteria colony leaving you with an uncycled tank again. Check the label to see what it says. If that happens you will be back to water changes daily until it cycles again.

 

[knt5005]

If nitrItes are high, that suggests the tank is still cycling. I'm sure you know of the nitrogen cycle: ammonia is consumed by nitrites, and then nitrites are consumed by nitrAtes, which are then reduced through water changes. Was the tank moved to your home, or was it always there? The good bacteria may have died off if it was moved, and if that's the case then the tank is cycling. I would get some used filter media immediately to get the good bacteria back into your tank. I hope this helps you out some. I haven't had any experience with velvet, but I'm assuming if you followed dosing instructions then they should be all right.

One more thing, and hopefully someone else responds to back this up: if it is in fact the nitrites that are high, I wouldn't do another 50% water change, or perhaps several small water changes. You need what little good bacteria may be left.

Hope I helped a bit. Good luck.

 

[sweetyness]

The tank has been at my home, set up about 8 months ago and gone through the initial cycle. (my daughter moved out) The filter bio-wheels are the same with all the good bacteria in them. Charcoal filter pads were changed out 2 weeks ago with the cleaning. It is the Nitrites that are high. I do not have a Nitrate tester, I should pick one up on the way home.

Any thoughts on what is killing the fish? Maybe I should add more aeration during treatment? Thanks for the quick responses!
~Jana

 

[rdd1952]

If nitrItes are high, that suggests the tank is still cycling. I'm sure you know of the nitrogen cycle: ammonia is consumed by nitrites, and then nitrites are consumed by nitrAtes, which are then reduced through water changes. Was the tank moved to your home, or was it always there? The good bacteria may have died off if it was moved, and if that's the case then the tank is cycling. I would get some used filter media immediately to get the good bacteria back into your tank. I hope this helps you out some. I haven't had any experience with velvet, but I'm assuming if you followed dosing instructions then they should be all right.

One more thing, and hopefully someone else responds to back this up: if it is in fact the nitrites that are high, I wouldn't do another 50% water change, or perhaps several small water changes. You need what little good bacteria may be left.

Hope I helped a bit. Good luck.

Actually, you're close. The ammonia isn't actually consumed by nitrite but by nitrifying bacteria that feeds on ammonia and produces nitrite as an end result just as plants consume CO2 and priduce oxygen. Same thing happens with nitrite to nitrate.

As far as the water changes are concerned, there isn't any significant amount of bacteria in the water. Bacteria attaches to surfaces such as the surface of your filter media. It also needs a water flow to bring food (ammonia and nitite) so the vast majority of the bacteria are present in your filter. So the amount of nitrite you are removing with the water change is much more helpful than any minute amount of bacteria you might lose.

Edit: My feeling is that the nitrite s definitely responsible for he deaths even if in a round about way. Nitrite is poisonous and indeed can kill fish. The stress brought on by high nitrite though is what triggers diseases such as ich and velvet. So even if the velvet is the actual cause of death, the nitrite is still the initial cause.

 

[sweetyness]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I need to keep closer tabs on the levels from now on. Do you believe testing once a week is sufficient?

I can't wait to get home and start helping them!

 

[-germ-]

RDD is spot on, the nitrites need sorting first, the water changes used to correct your nitrites would interfere with any meds.
Basically, get the nitrites sorted first.
Another recommendation is to get and use SeaChem prime as a dechlorinator, it can't really hurt in the short term, this should de-toxify your nitrite and really help your fish. Link to seachems site is in my sig. Some people disagree with its use and see it as an unnecessary addition, maybe in the long term it could be, but there are 2 points relating to this opinion;
1; many fish keepers use prime as their regular dechlor without any evidence to suggest it is bad for your fish.
2; whether it is natural or not (dechlor isn't, neither is feeding them flake, neither are aquariums) it will give your fish an improved chance of surviving.
Water changes are obviously your greatest weapon, but combine the 2 and you should be doing ok.
Thanks for your time and good luck.
(let us know how it goes)

 

[-germ-]

Just noticed your reply to RDD, until you are confident that your tank is cycled (using a good liquid tester) i'd do 20% changes daily (at least) and test daily (at least) this'll warn you of any spikes and/or iminent water related issues that are likely to occur in your situation...
Once cycled, to prevent mishap, test weekly and perform at least a 25% water change weekly....
Do you use a gravel vac or standard siphon?
If siphon, purchase a gravel vac, it should help keep your water conditions at their best.

Edited for grammar....

 

[sweetyness]

Prime is what we used when we set up the tank- worked great. I have a good liquid tester kit I use for my koi pond. Do the tester liquids have a shelf life? I have had this kit for 1 1/2 years at least. Seems to still work good.

We have a gravel vac, works great. Until this problem the tank has been clear and happy. I have been working late and haven't been inspecting the fish as much in the last week- that'll teach me. And I think my elderly mom that lives with me feeds the fish a bit too much. I keep telling her! She says she doesn't...but that would explain the nitrite spike I think.

Thanks again for all of your great advice. I will be testing constantly until it is fixed, I won't sleep well until then! My poor babies! (I get attached)

Question: If the other clown loach, (2"), is still alive when I treat next, should I not treat him with the malachite green? And if not, what then? Thx!

 

[rdd1952]

Depending on the medication, you may be able to do water changes without it interfering with the meds. I actually bought some today for a problem with my betta and it said that I could do a second treatment in 48 hours and after a 25% water change. In either case though, the main thing is to get rid of the nitrites even if it means doing one large 75% water change before adding the meds.

 

[-germ-]

Get the nitrites down first though...
Consider asking your gran not to feed the fish, fish can survive for a week plus without food so maybe this would be best....
Once the nitrites are down try a combination treatment of formulin based medication with your malachite green.
Good luck...

 

[rdd1952]

I agree with not feeding or at least cutting to every 2nd or 3rd day. I have left mine twice in the last year for 5 or 6 days without food and they were fine.

 

[-SPB-]

Just read the post, this is more clarification for myself but have heard not to mess with the ph to much, and if you do only do it small amounts. (0.2) Would reducing the PH by 1 - 1.5 have caused more stress to the fish, maybe resulting in the other death???

 

[sweetyness]

Update: Stopped by my knowledgable fish store and the owner recommended the 25% water change; remove all plants, ornaments, (dead fish I find), and vacumn the gravel well. (The priming solution he had could not be used after the "Cycle" I used.) He then said to treat with Coppersafe as it is a one time treatment, and won't hurt any scaleless fish I had left. He siad the reason the bala shark died was from the PH treatment- they don't like sudden changes in PH, So yes! It hurt them. (Always when I think I am helping!) I also purchsed testing liquid for Nitrates.

Once home, I found that the other bala shark was dead, and my 2nd clown loach also gone. And the remaining rubber lipped poco. Left were 2 rosy reds, a lemon tetra, and a few other assorted small fish. A couple small ones missing, not to be found when all items taken out of tank, must have become lunch. Did the cleaning and decided to wait until the tank levels were better before the coppersafe treatment- plus I want to be around so will probably do it tomorrow. (Am going to treat koi pond also, see 1 fish with ick on tail, and another with a coulple bumps).

This morning., 1 more small fish dead, but nitrite & nitrate levels are going down. PH fine, has been since treatment. So hopefully we are on the way to safety. I am going to hate to tell my daughter her favorites are gone!

What do you recommend as far as new fish quarantine? I have a 10 gallon tank I set up for the plants- it has a good filter, heater, airstone. Should I treat new fish with the Malachite Green or Cooersafe in the small tank before introducing to large one? Or just observe for a time, and how long? I know a lot of koi folks use the malachite with new fish. But the scalesless ones shouldn't have it.

Thanks again!! It was nice having support yesterday! ~Jana

 

[rdd1952]

I must have missed in the original post that you had used something to lower the pH. Thpse things are not good and as he shop person said, large pH changes can cause problems. Most fish can easily adapt to any pH as long as its stable. Using the adjusters keeps it in constant swing as the chemicals raises or lowers it from where it would normally be and then very shortly after you have added it, the pH will start to move back to it's normal level so itsconstantly up and down.

As for te medications, I wouldn't treat the new fish unless they are sick or diseased. Just quarantine them for 2 or 3 weeks to make sure they are healthy before introducing them to the big tank.