filtration questions

[ess17]

I went to several different LFSs today to try to find out what kind of setup I want to save up money for. I got fairly average prices for all items I think, but my one major indecision lies around filtration. I got a different opinion from each store on how to set it up, and I will try to describe them below:

(Keep in mind that this is for a 75 or 90 US Gal to hold corals and fish)



First Store:
First setup: The had a "sump" setup designed to let the water run over a filter in a tray, over bio balls and then into the chamber to be sent to a built in skimmer and then back to the tank (or so I assume) for approx $250
Second setup: They had something called a "tide pool" that has the water run through filtration and what looked like a wheel and into a pool where a skimmer and pump would sit. $169 + skimmer
Third setup: They had a bio tower that would sit on an aquarium and then you could add a skimmer if you wanted. $160 + skimmer

Second store:
They told me to get a cheap aquarium or plastic tub that would house a skimmer and pump, and that I should not use a "wet/dry" filter as this is not a good idea. $10 for tub or $30-$60 for cheap aquarium + skimmer

Third store:
They had an aquarium that housed a bio ball tower (with tray for addl filter) and also a euro reef skimmer and pump. $200 + skimmer (they had two different euro reef models, one was $300 and one was $375)

My question is more about what the best setup is rather than what costs are, but I don't want to pay for things that are not necessary either. I know opinions will vary greatly, but I would love to hear what everyone has used and the positives and negatives. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Great Lakes]

Damn good question!

We will skip the third store because though the equipment may differ, they share the same principals and theories on filtration as the first store.

Now, you said corals and fish, so I am going to assume you are pursuing a reef tank....congrats.

The bones of this setup will be the reef structure itself made out of apprx 100lbs or more of rock. At least 50% of this should be good quality liverock placed over a substructure of base rock which is much cheaper and will become "live" overtime as it is colonized with the good bacteria and all the other biological goodies from the premium stuff.

What the first store was trying to sell you was the typical wet/dry system found on nearly all marine aquariums in days gone by, and still widely used on fish only systems.

The wet/dry filters provide the three tiers of filtration. Mechanical filtration, (floss), to remove organic particulates from the water, biological filtration, (bio-balls), that harbors the good bacteria that will start the ammonia conversion process, and chemical filtration, the ability to place carbon etc in the filtering process.

LEt us break them down one at a time.
Mechanical. There is a small growing segment of marine aquarists that use, and experiment with different options for the export of dissolved organic compounds and the larger particulate matter that accumulates.
However, I would venture that 90% of us still view skimmers as the most viable, simple option.
Even if you are running a fish only system, with a wet/fry filter, a skimmer is still a recommended piece of equipment. So this really renders the mechanical filtration part of the w/d superflous.

Biological. There are some who claim that bio-balls will leach toxins back into you water as they become taxed to the limit and beyond. True, or not, I am not sure.
But your live rock will harbor all the good bacteria you could ever ask for if you stock your tank wisely.
So you have a handful of bio-balls versus 100 ponds of rock. It does not take a rocket scientist to do the maths here! Live rock is simply the best answer.

Chemical. This is a tough one. Rare are the times when you will find a need to run any chemicals on your tank. But they do arise, and are usually an emergency when they do. That is why you will find that the majority of us that do not use a wet/dry system have a simple canister filter on hand to run one kind of chemical media or another if the need arises.

Oh, duh, the answer to your question is store number two...
Simply a sump underneath to house a return pump, a skimmer, and a couple of submersible heaters.

Now, you did not directly ask, but I am gonna give you your dream tank stats anyway.

Go with the 75 gallon tank. It is not as deep, so it will be kid simple to light and work in. But I am not against volume, so if you find a better deal on a 90gal, go for it.
But it must be drilled!!!!
This phenomena of putting holes in the bottom of a perfectly good glass tank is known as Reef Ready for a reason. It is the most practical bulletproof means of getting water from the top to the bottom. Do not let anyone at the lfs try to convince you that an overflow box works fine. This is a plastic contraption that goes on the back of the tank and clogs, or loses siphon causing a lot of water to end up where it does not belong. And they are expensive. They will usually cost more than the extra price you will pay for a reef ready tank.

Your stand. If you go with a 75, definitely try to get one of the taller 30" stands. This will make it easier to work underneath and plumb and wire up all kinds of neato stuff.

Get a glass or acrylic tank for you sump. Yes, the plastic tubs work well enough, but if you have glass or acrylic, your heater suction cups will work well. The glass or acrylic tank will also allow you to silicone in partitions later if need be. Get at least a 20gal long tank. Bigger if possible. But do try to leave a couple of feet open under you tank for future expansions and equipment. The best thing to do here is have a hole drilled into the side of the sump to plumb an external pump into the system. They are more powerful and efficient.

Skimmers are a matter of taste for this size tank. But don't cheap out.

Lighting. Oh boy. One of the most critical aspects of reefkeeping is lighting. If you get cheap here, you will end up like me. You will have 84 extra bulbs laying around, and a shelf full of ballasts. Then when you finally get around to doing it right, you will overdo it to make sure you never ever have to do it again.
So custom up a canopy, and get an Icecap 430 ballast that will run a pair of VHO bulbs...10,000k. And then get a good double maetal halide ballast and run a pair of 250watt 12-14,000k bulbs. You will virtually be able to handle any coral, and will never be sorry.

GL

 

[ess17]

Thank you for all of the info!!!

I do have a few questions about what you said...

As far as the live rock, would I need to start out with the full 100 lbs when I set up the tank, or could I add as I go? If I can add as I go, how much do you recommend is the least amount I could start with and still provide enough filtration that I wouldn't need additional filtration? How long would the base rock take to become "live rock"?

Also, does anyone have any suggestions on skimmers that they liked/disliked?

Thanks!!!

 

[amstar15]

something I want to suggest. In many LFS you can find items cheaper than on-line. However I have found that in looking online you can find the filters, sumps, heaters, live rock ect much much cheaper. A few sites in the states that are good for hardware are Petsolutions.com and drsfostersmith.com. both of these websites sell hardware alot cheaper than your LFS. just a suggestion. even live rock can be found cheaper.

 

[Def]

As far as the live rock, would I need to start out with the full 100 lbs when I set up the tank, or could I add as I go? If I can add as I go, how much do you recommend is the least amount I could start with and still provide enough filtration that I wouldn't need additional filtration? How long would the base rock take to become "live rock"?

You can start off with way less than 100lb, but remember that this is your filtration. So if you reduce the amount of lr in your system, you must reduce the bioload (fish!) accordingly. Maybe start off with 50lb of lr if you can afford it, stock very slowly and keep adding lr as you go. When you add lr to a running system, make sure you buy fully cured (and make sure the shop is really selling you it - one LFS near me sells "fully cured" lr that isn't 100% submerged in the vats). If you buy fully cured and only add a little at a time to a running system, you won't have problems. Buy uncured and you'll cause an ammonia spike as it cures.

As far as I can see, there is no advantage to buying base rock/reef bones. It's close to the same price as live rock, and it provides no filtration. I don't know how long it takes to become live rock, but I'm guessing we're talking months rather than days or weeks.

 

[Great Lakes]

As far as I can see, there is no advantage to buying base rock/reef bones. It's close to the same price as live rock

Realy? I have not seen that to be the case around me.

Reef bones go for 1.50 to 2.00 a pound. Whereas live rock starts at about 7.50 and goes up from there.

Depends on location I guess.

GL

 

[Navarre]

EEk Def!
How much does reefbones cost near you? I can get a 40lbs box of reefbones for about £90 (well actually around £75 but thats with alot of haggling )

An equivilant box of liverock would cost around £220


Either your reefbones are vastly overpriced or you can get liverock at bargain prices and i want 5 boxes of it

 

[blout]

nav where do you get your reef bones from as im looking to bulck up in my main tank and sump, so i can start turning it into living rock