Electric blue blues

Michael Murray

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Boise idaho
I have a 100 gallon well planted will establish column tank. Let me preface this showing my level of knowledge through fish keeping. I was the head of freshwater husbandry at the public aquarium in Boise, I breed several species primarily focusing on endangered African cichlids from Lake Tanganyika and Lake Victoria. I'm actually working on that endangered breeding program with several aquariums. So Not tooting my horn anymore but I know my stuff. I understand that South American fish require that soft slightly acidic water. But I also know Electric Blues are in bread up the yang, all of those designer species are so there are a lot of inherent risk with purchasing those type species. But out of my group of 20 every once in awhile I get one that bloats up scales distended eyes even a little distended but not goggle-eye and I am perplexed. The water is perfect, they have been established for months. So I know it has nothing to do with acclimation shock. I know an Epsom salt bath will definitely help draw out even a sea salt bath would do that. But I also don't like doing that type of stuff with Electric Blues as finicky as they are. Typically it's a lost cause at this point but just wondering if anybody has any suggestions or has found a remedy. Because I know if I have faced this a few times everybody else who has had more than a couple has faced this. So sorry for the long thread but just reaching out. I am a pretty good wealth of knowledge to anybody who may have any questions in the future. Appreciate it y'all.
 
I'm sorry I don't have any advice for your Electric Blues, but I just wanted to say hi and welcome to the forum! Look forward to seeing you around : )
 
Yeah I wish it was as easy as a parasite yes, but my German Blues are fine and the rest of the EB are fine. I have reticulated hillstream loaches and Borneo loaches, pencil fish and glass cats. They are all doing fine they are my indicator species. So it's not parasitic or there'd be many more species involved. Just thinking it is to do with their digestive tract. That inbreeding is taken a toll and I think they either have too long of a digestive tract where is predatory fish they should have short straight esophagus to the intestines where herbaceous fish have a lot of twists and turns in their intestines for bacteria to grow to break down the cellulose. They are fed a very good diet and almost wondering if it is swim bladder due to intestinal issues. I may perform a swim bladder surgery, if this one croaks somehow he has made it 5 days I have him in an isolation container I will do a necropsy and look through the internal organs. I will post my findings because I will be able to determine normal digestive tract from abnormal. So we'll see how that goes.
 
Hi and welcome to the forum :)

When you say electric blue, I assume you are talking about Sciaenochromis ahli, a cichlid from Lake Malawi?

You mention German Blues, I assume these are blue rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)?
And you mention reticulated hillstream loaches, Borneo loaches, pencil fish and glass cats.
Are these fish in the same tank as the electric blue cichlid (S. ahli)?

What is the GH and pH of the tank water?

If you have the loaches, pencil fish, glass catfish and rams in with the S. ahli, there is going to be problems for some of those fish. The S. ahli come from hard water with a pH above 7.0, the others come from soft water with a pH below 7.0.

If they are in separate tanks it is not an issue, but also has no bearing on the S. ahli problem because they are not in the same tank.

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Most African Rift Lake cichlids that are bred locally are normally pretty good quality. If you want good stock you can find a cichlid society or an aquarium society in your area and go to their meetings. You might be able to find stock or get leads as to where you can get good stock from.

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Fish that bloat up and get bulging eyes usually have an internal bacterial infection that can be caused by bad food, incorrect diet, Tuberculosis (TB), or other types of bacteria or protozoa that build up in their body and eventually kill the fish.

Bad food will usually affect more than 1 fish every few months so this is unlikely to be the cause.

Bad diet/ incorrect food for the species is usually a bigger issue in vegetarian fishes when they get lots of meat in their diet. Tropheus species commonly bloat up if fed a lot of meat. Red meats are more of an issue than marine based meats like prawn, fish & squid. S. ahli should not have issues with bloating caused by meat based foods.

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If the fish have an internal protozoan infection they usually lose weight over a week or two, do a stringy white poop, they might eat a bit but sometimes stop eating, and eventually die a few weeks after the initial symptoms appeared.

Metronidazole is regularly used to treat internal protozoan infections in fish but it does wipe out filter bacteria so you have to monitor water quality during and after treatment.

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Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium species) are an ancient group of bacteria that infect all birds, fish, animals and reptiles. The bacteria are found in most pet shops & fish wholesalers around the world and can live in aquariums for years and not need a host to survive. They get picked up by fish and settle in the fish's body somewhere, usually on an organ, where they slowly grow. After a period of time (maybe 6-12 months), the bacteria have built up in sufficient numbers and done sufficient damage to a internal organ, and that organ ruptures or fails and the fish bloats up, stops eating, does stringy white poop, sits under the surface or by a filter outlet and breathes heavily, and usually dies within 24 hours of this occurring.

The bacteria grow faster in warm water and slower in cool water, and they have a waxy coating surrounding them that protects them from most chemicals, medications and drying out. Mycobacteria that affect fish have been found dormant but alive, underneath rocks on dry river beds that have not had water for over 8 years.

These bacteria are extremely tough and hard to kill without strong chemicals like bleach or heat (60C temperatures). In aquarium fish they are impossible to treat and you lose one fish here and another one there and you can't stop it.

My guess is your fish have TB. Some people have had success getting rid of the disease from their tank by breeding fish and separating the eggs straight away and hatching them in a clean tank. The disease remains in the main tank but they get disease free fish by separating the eggs and growing the fry up in a clean environment. The fish in the main tank are then destroyed and the tank is disinfected with high levels of granulated swimming pool chlorine. Whether this would work for mouth brooding cichlids, I don't know but you could try milking the females and hatching the eggs in an incubator in a separate tank with clean water.

If you have TB in the tank or suspect you have it in the tanks, you should assume it is in all of the aquariums. You should wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water after working in the tank and avoid getting aquarium water on your skin if you have any open wounds, cuts or scratches on your skin. The Mycobacterium can get into wounds and cause localised infections called granulomas. These start out as small sores that don't heal and after a few months develop into small lumpy growths that weep.

If you have any sores on your skin that don't heal up quickly, see your doctor and tell them you have fish that might have TB (Mycobacteria). Get the doctor to take swabs of the wound and send it off for culturing in a lab. Wait until you get the test results back (in about 1 week) before taking any medication because TB can only be treated with certain anti-biotics, and taking the wrong anti-biotics will only make the problem worse. There are also different strains in the same species of TB and they sometimes require different medications.

Most people with a healthy immune system never develop TB from their fish, but anyone can get it if they have open wounds that get exposed to contaminated water. Washing up with warm soapy water is essential if you have or might have this disease in the tank. If you have open wounds on your skin and have to work in the tank, get a pair of rubber cloves and wear them to stop the aquarium water getting onto/ into the wounds.
 
Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, the water conditions are very similar to South East Asian. I only breed a select few sulphur-crested peacocks Aulonoacara mylindi , I focus on xenotilapia subs from Victoria, on F2's and tanganyikan species such as cyprichromis, cyphotilapia frontosa, eight different Subs of altolamprologus compressiceps, all calvus, tropheus duboisi, Fruicefer, multifasciatus, want to expound on the subs species of leptisoma gst into jumbos and get into more of the shelleys, and just started with some enantioups melanoegnys from Burundi, F2's. As far as my planted 100 gallon column it is the electric blue Ram I should have been more specific for sure.
 
And I feed only Omega one, I have not fed any live cultures to these guys I have Cyclops, tiger pods, rotifers and brine going but I have refrained from live feed. I also do feed the bug bites. Luckily I get wholesale through my company but I try to to feed the highest quality food I can get my hands on. And Rams being Eaters of small micro fauna and anything they can fit in their mouth I have stayed away from any type vegetative matter in this tanks diet. And I would have to imagine it would affect more fish but it is intermittently affecting one of the colony that eventually dies. Definitely it would imagine it's microbial. His body looks to be in defense overload. Poor little guy is to the point where only homeopathic is going to play Nothing stronger. It will surely kill him at this point.
 
I've had the unfortunate pleasure of dealing with Marine infection and toxin. I was poisoned at the aquarium with palytoxin from a big ole estd. Colony of Pally zooanthids. Thumb was 4times it's normal size for 6 weeks. Almost killed my partner. Hospitalize both of us. At this point I'm sure I have schistosomiasis tuberculosis some type of renal failure due from poisonings of the past. If I die doing it I definitely am dying enjoying it!
 
I'll do a necropsy with the other biologists at the aquarium and the aquarium vet after he croaks. Will publish what I find and or if I figure out a remedy.
 
Gotcha on Mikrogeophagus ramirezi. The information is the same for both species. I would say Mycobacterium or something similar.

Out of curiosity, why don't you use live food? Most fish love live food and baby brineshrimp and small rotifers make great supplemental foods for them.

A bit of plant matter in their diet won't harm them. The big issue is with vegetarian fishes eating lots of meat, but carnivores can eat plant matter.
 
I guess I just have that stuff for my babies. I do the Frozen for the adults. And I've got full size brine shrimp a lot of them are holding egg cases and I want them to procreate so I'm not feeding those to anybody right now. Honestly this tank is inside and the breeder tanks are in my garage, it is just easier to do the Frozen in here. And yes of course predatory fish get vegetable matter from the food they eat consuming vegetation. And the straight digestive tracts of the predatory fish make the necropsy easier. He did expire overnight I even had another one looking like it is starting to do that labored breathing. I'm going to put him in alcohol and take him into the aquarium Sunday see if I can figure this out. I can send off labs to check for TB because I take fish to the aquarium and vice versa but they go in quarantine for six weeks before they are released. So definitely want to make sure there isn't any type Contagion or viral infection that can spread. I'd much rather deal with bacterial. antibiotics or antimicrobials work at that point typically if it's caught in time I'm going to try to treat this one that is showing some preliminary signs of degradation.
 
I have been using this Artemis an herbatana it is amazing stuff. I have yet to find holistic remedies that actually work. This is definitely some stuff I would recommend to anybody. But I have Furman one and two, do you think that would be a wise choice to utilize? It's definitely microbial. I have been studying the carcass and there are small lesions and ulcers that formed over the last 48 hours. Poor little bastard has been rotting from the inside out. So I need something that will get to the point quickly. This other one is just starting
 
you could freeze the body.

Furman or Furan?
You could try Furan 2 but use it in a quarantine tank because it wipes out filter bacteria.

If the fish is going downhill just try whatever you have. The fish is going to die anyway so start experimenting.
 
Furnan you'll find a lot of my texts have pretty weird errors. I voice text a lot. And I will tell you voice text is not like scientific names and does not like infrequently used words. I would imagine sometimes it must feel like solving a riddle when you read my messages. I am a biologist with area of study in herpetology and ichthyology. But I was a BS not BA so I'm going to apologize in advanced. When you see a word that just does not seem right it's voice text.
 
And for sure anytime I treat the fish I have my doctor tank. Not only is it just too expensive to treat anyting 60 gallons are above effectively it does kill everything and I have a lot of invertebrates in my tanks so Artemis and herbtana are the only medicines I can use in community style tanks. This particular tank is filled with different pairs of apistogrammas and Rams with some other touchy species 5 different species of stiphodon (Microsicydium atropurpureum, Microsicydium formosum)and also bumblebee gobys. Just really touchy fish so I have to be very careful of treating. And the thing that sucks is you cannot get rid of it once you have it that's basically any type parasite bacteria whatever the case maybe once it's in the gravel bed is there to stay. And that's fine as long as the fish are healthy but you get one with a depressed immune system for any length of time they are goners.
 

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