Effect Of Low Numbers Of Plants

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Kaidonni

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Hmmm, I was thinking today about the effects of plants on aquariums. What specifically would the effects be? The bacteria in the tank, do they convert both toxic and ionised ammonia into nitrites, or just one of them? Of course, more bacteria turn those into nitrates, I know that part. You see, I read about plants using ionised ammonia and nitrates in their systems, which got me thinking that a lack of plants might be bad (not an entire lack, just low numbers). I mean, if they use any ammonia in their systems, it means there is less to be turned into nitrites, and less of that to be turned into nitrates. And if they use up nitrates, then the more plants the better (granted I'd need to pay attention to rotting plants and dead leaves, etc...).

I don't know, though. This all just got me thinking, and I'd like to know a bit more, if I'm right, wrong, or anything. I sometimes go a bit lax on plants for the tank, and I'm trying to get nitrates lower (they are rather high, although the fish most certainly aren't stressed like the last time it happened *touch wood*)...
 
As far as the "ammonia-nitrite-nitrate" nitrogen cycle is concerned, plants use nitrates only. They will also become covered in the same bacteria which are contained in the filter, this providing a biological filter.

In practice, it is a lot more complicated then that.. but one would need to know at least some chemistry to understand it.. Wikipedia has some quite good articles on the subject of fertilisers :)
 
As far as the "ammonia-nitrite-nitrate" nitrogen cycle is concerned, plants use nitrates only. They will also become covered in the same bacteria which are contained in the filter, this providing a biological filter.

In practice, it is a lot more complicated then that.. but one would need to know at least some chemistry to understand it.. Wikipedia has some quite good articles on the subject of fertilisers :)
not exactly true if im reading this correctly^^
plants preferentially use ammonia as their nitrogen source..and do so as with as much ammonia they can get before the filter converts it...if none present, they then use nitrate, and as a last "resort" nitrites. having any amount of plants in a aquarium helps keep parameters stable as the plants take up these things for growth. the more plants you put into an aquarium (especially fast growing species) the more of these they use up..so if you have a cycled filter (which converts ammonia-nitrates as a final product) the plants will have to use the nitrates as their nitrogen source, as the ammonia is removed by the filter rather quickly. i have a 6 gal planted tank (really dense planting) and have levels of 0-0-0. the plants use ALL the nitrates.
what are you considering to be high nitrates?? most fish species can tolerate upwards of 100's of ppm without any effect to their health. you can remove nitrates several ways. more waterchanges (assuming you dont have high nitrate out of the tap), lots of live plants, cut back on feeding (less food in=less waste out..we tend to overfeed our fish anyway in this hobby).
unless it is a fry tank, or one containing overly sensitive species, even up to 80ppm is ok...just make sure to acclimate any newcommers slowly so they can adjust.
cheers
 
loraxchick is spot on, plants can use ammonia, and nitrite as well as nitrates. levels of up to 400ppm have been scientifically shown to be safe for fish, but personally I try to keep them under 100 (I'm using the EI system which is why its high)
 
Thanks for the replies. I'm considering between 50-100ppm as high. I have Clown Loaches, so I'm rather particular about those sorts of things. Don't want to stress them out. Plus I'm looking for new fish soon, time for new blood in the tank, been quite a while, and I'm going to be after fish other than more tetras (aside from the Clown Loaches, I've been exclusively tetra for years now). I don't want to end up with situations where any new fish are dead a couple of days later because of water quality...

I've already put some of the fish on a temporary diet, save for the Clown Loaches (they gobble up any food I put in, but the other fish...hmmm...), and did a water change yesterday. I'm going to test the water later, and with any luck, I'll pop to get more plants soon.
 
As far as the "ammonia-nitrite-nitrate" nitrogen cycle is concerned, plants use nitrates only. They will also become covered in the same bacteria which are contained in the filter, this providing a biological filter.

In practice, it is a lot more complicated then that.. but one would need to know at least some chemistry to understand it.. Wikipedia has some quite good articles on the subject of fertilisers :)
not exactly true if im reading this correctly^^
plants preferentially use ammonia as their nitrogen source..and do so as with as much ammonia they can get before the filter converts it...if none present, they then use nitrate, and as a last "resort" nitrites. having any amount of plants in a aquarium helps keep parameters stable as the plants take up these things for growth. the more plants you put into an aquarium (especially fast growing species) the more of these they use up..so if you have a cycled filter (which converts ammonia-nitrates as a final product) the plants will have to use the nitrates as their nitrogen source, as the ammonia is removed by the filter rather quickly. i have a 6 gal planted tank (really dense planting) and have levels of 0-0-0. the plants use ALL the nitrates.
what are you considering to be high nitrates?? most fish species can tolerate upwards of 100's of ppm without any effect to their health. you can remove nitrates several ways. more waterchanges (assuming you dont have high nitrate out of the tap), lots of live plants, cut back on feeding (less food in=less waste out..we tend to overfeed our fish anyway in this hobby).
unless it is a fry tank, or one containing overly sensitive species, even up to 80ppm is ok...just make sure to acclimate any newcommers slowly so they can adjust.
cheers
That's why I said that in practice, it is more complicated.

Actually, they can not use pure ammonia on its own. The plants use ammonium (which is very different from ammonia) and nitrates. Ammonia will be converted into ammonium in the aquarium, but this requires H[sup]+[/sup] ions which are mainly present in low pH. This is why it is recommended that filters are cycled at high pH: more pure ammonia is present for the Nitrosomonas bacteria. As we all know, nitrites are converted into nitrates in filters.

loraxchick is spot on, plants can use ammonia, and nitrite as well as nitrates. levels of up to 400ppm have been scientifically shown to be safe for fish, but personally I try to keep them under 100 (I'm using the EI system which is why its high)
Not true: see above for ammonia and nitrite.
250ppm for nitrate is really the upper limit for most fish without permanent harm occurring. Yes, there are a few species who will survive up to 500ppm with no ill effects. But, there are also commonly available fish who will not tolerate over 50ppm nitrate. In home aquaria, we have control of all the factors and it is generally considered that 25ppm is a reasonable upper limit for people to aim for.
I am interested to see what species were used in the experiments you refer to, please provide the reference for the paper.
 
i can see this is getting a bit heavy.
to the OP- basically, the more plants the better water chemistry (generally speaking)...so plant it up:)
and please dont use Wiki as the sole source of any type of research:( ive found all SORTS of dodgy info on wiki-comes with how the info gets added. just another thought.
cheers
 
plants can still uptake ammonia as they excrete a H+ ion to convert it into ammonium.
Plants can also use nitrite.

Whatever ammonia used to go towards bacterial production in the filter, is now "filtered" via plants so the stocking density can still be kept the same without any ill affect
Unless the plants rot and produce ammonia but then bacteria numbers will rise.

There isnt really anything to worry about.
 
Pretty interesting, I was reading a book from the library (Yes, they still exist!) about ponds, and one of the filter options was a vegatable filter. You plant vegtables in a sump-like thing, with their roots in the water, and they clean the water. Pretty nifty, said it was only for lightly stocked ponds.
 

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