Dosing With Esha Medicine/water Changes Without Prime

[Kaidonni]

I have been having issues in my tank with the White Cloud Mountain Minnows, and I have virtually completed the first course of Esha 2000 and Exit combined - but added a fourth day on to it. The female Minnow appears to have made some improvement; she is hanging at the surface much less than she was when the light is off, and she seems to have stopped doing it when the light is on. This white spot above the male Minnow's right eye is still there (it doesn't exactly match any disease or parasite I've read about), but he's as active as ever and was quite hungry last night when I fed a small amount of flake food (his actual mouth I don't know about, maybe it has improved - people advised that they believed he was exhibiting early signs of mouthrot).
 
I was hoping to do a 50% clean sans Prime tomorrow, running the replacement water through some carbon filter pads from my lfs, and then to keep a carbon pad in the filter for ~24 hours. On Monday, I wish to begin a second full treatment of the Esha 2000 and Exit combined, probably extending that to four days (after replacing the carbon in the filter with a normal wool pad). On Friday, 50% change sans Prime, and that's it (it's all I can do, I'll be tied up after that and won't be available to do anything with the tank). Does that regime seem sound enough?
 
I have to do the cleans without Prime because I contacted the Esha manufacturer about my situation, and they warned Prime lasts a long while and can bind with their medicines, and might even cause a reaction. I can't say to how long Prime actually lasts, except under normal conditions (i.e. not over-dosed), the reducing potential is mostly used up within 24 hours (tested it on a bucket of water last year, it's how I discovered that Prime can mess with Nessler-based ammonia test kits).
 
I actually started dosing on Wednesday, ~16 hours after a 50% clean that involved the use of Prime, as I just can't keep messing about. I'm lucky 50% is 23-25 litres, much larger and - if I don't use Prime - I'll be limited to using non-temperature matched water, and risk affecting the Minnows negatively with the temperature variation. I can't exactly fill three buckets with water and heat them; I only have one 10-litre bucket for water changes, the other three are strictly for dirty tank water. In any case, it's also not convenient to go out and purchase another heater or a larger bucket...I have to act very quickly and just get this all sorted out, and the best time to get the next change done is tomorrow, and then to begin the next course of treatment on Monday. Trust me to catch a stinking cold while all this is going on!
 
I suppose I could heat the first 10 litres, or increase it to 11/12 litres, and just not heat the rest...the heater in the tank isn't actually turned on, so I could get away with hijacking it for this purpose.
 
Temperature matching via the tap isn't going to work without Prime - if any heavy metals should get into the water, there's nothing to detoxify them, and I'm not sure how much carbon will remove of the heavy metals that Prime would otherwise take care of, or of any minerals. I also don't believe my tap water contains chloramine, but if it does, would carbon take care of that?

 
Any advice or tips on how to proceed? I need to do a 50% on Friday because it's then almost two weeks before I can do anything else, so I need to get the water nice and clean.
 
One last thing - I live in the UK, so there may be products people will recommend that I don't have access to, or don't come as cheap as they do in other parts of the world (read that as requiring additional spending on international transport).

 

[Byron]

I will say nothing of the medication issues, as I am completely unfamiliar with the named products.  But I may be able to offer some help re water conditioners and Prime, as you have asked several related questions.
 
My first comment is that Prime is probably the most complex water conditioner you can use.  It detoxifies chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.  I will not use this product solely for this reason...it does way more than I need or want messed with.  As for its effectiveness, Seachem have advised me that it lasts from 24-48 hours, with respect to the detoxification of heavy metals, nitrite and nitrate.  Ammonia is "detoxified" by being changed into ammonium, and this change is permanent, as is the detoxification of chlorine and chloramine.  I do not know which aspect of Prime messes with the medication, and I would caution that it may well be the chemical properties in Prime that causes this issue and is not time-related.  Given the circumstances, other methods of "treating" the tap water may be preferable.
 
If you have chlorine but not chloramine, as you state, then you can remove the chlorine by allowing the water to sit 24 hours, or briskly agitating it.  Chlorine readily dissipates out of water...which is the reason so much of it is added by some water authorities, and why others have gone to chloramine which is more permanent. 
 
The "heavy metals" in your tap water are not ikely to be of much significance.  However, without knowing the numbers, there is always the possibility of high copper for example.  I could suggest a conditioner that only handles chlorine/chloramine and heavy metals, like the API Tap Water Conditioner or Kordon's NovAqua [I am using the API now, and have used the Kordon for many years previously].  This would work unless these also mess with the medication, and perhaps you could ask them.  It may be the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate issues in Prime, I do not know.  Seachem themselves have been unable to explain exactly how/why Prime detoxifies nitrate.  [Another reason I won't use it, but then I don't need to.]
 
Byron.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am somewhat on board with what Byron stated. However, I do not use any dechlors as I have well water and do not need them. However, I have done a fair amount of research into the cycling process, the bacteria etc. and what they do.
 
If I needed a dechlor it would not be Prime nor any other product that uses Aloe vere specifically but also things supposed to help with slime coats.
 
The next problem I have related to making ammonia non-toxic. All of the research I have read indicates that the bacteria use ammonia as NH3 not NH4. The exception to this is in very acid waters where there is all NH4 and no NH3. However, some of the ammonia oxidizing bacteria do have receptors for NH4 and can use it. the problem is they are different strains than we find in tanks for the most part. And this make me wonder about SeaChem's statement that the ammonia is still available to the bacteria.
 
Moreover, here is what Dr. Hovanec says about such products relative to cycling:
 

Do not add ammonia removers to bind the ammonia – overdosing with these products will just increase the cycling time.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling
 
In fishless cycling there is no danger from ammonia (NH3) to fish since the tank contains none. Moreover, there is really no need to detoxify ammonia created from chloramines breaking down. The amount of ammonia residual chloramine in the water creates is minimal. Since we are not changing water during a fishless cycle unless it runs into issues, there is no need to neutralize the ammonia, especially since we are adding much more ammonia to get the cycle going and completed. Once a tank has established a proper complement of nitrifying microorganisms, they will be able to handle that minimal amount of ammonia with ease.
 
If you read some of my posts you will notice when I suggest a reset of a tank by doing a huge water change, I normally tell people to wait a day before they add ammonia. This helps with this situation for those products that tend to dissipate in a day or so. Some products can retain their ammonia detoxifying abilities for longer.
 
One thing to know about dechlors is their redox potential. They will lower oxygen levels in a tank. So will a number of other commonly used products. One shoould be alert to this fact an try to avoid the simultaneous use of such products as this greatly increases the risk. yhis is especially tru if one overdoses one ot more of such products together.
 
For those interested in the NH3/NH4 issue with bacteria and acid pH water, here are a few studies you can look at:
 
Nitrification in a Biofilm at Low pH Values: Role of In Situ Microenvironments and Acid Tolerance
http/aem.asm.org/content/72/6/4283.full.pdf+html
Changes in ammonia oxidiser population during transition to low pH in a biofilm reactor starting with Nitrosomonas europaea
http/gwri-ic.technion.ac.il/pdf/Professors/Michal_Green/11.pdf
High-Rate Nitrification at Low pH in Suspended- and Attached-Biomass Reactors
http/aem.asm.org/content/70/11/6481.full

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Kai- I saw your post and SeaChem's reply. I tried to edit the above post to insert more info and it messed up every try so i am doing a second post. here is what i found on the Esha site: http/www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-2000supregsup.pdf
 
It is copy protected so I cannot quote, but read the section at the bottom of page 2 entitled What precautions must I take when using Esha 2000? if you have not already done so.
 
My impression is they prefer to minimize water changes limiting them to pre-dosing not after you dose.

 

[Kaidonni]

So if I wish to do a second treatment...just wait a few days and re-treat? Then just do a 50% at the end of the week, before I'm tied-up? I did clean on Tuesday last, 50%, so this Tuesday is a week on; I'd also performed 50% cleans on the previous Friday Saturday and Sunday (22th-24th May), and then the Sunday, Monday and Tueday before that (17th-19th May). All using Prime, a few extra drops to be on the safe side with each bucket...but now the issue with ammonium has been highlighted, I may well stop using Prime altogether. Perhaps those faint ammonia readings on my Nutrafin tests I reported earlier in the year could be explained by Prime binding the ammonia and the bacteria not being able to use the ammonium (something to definitely test if I do stop using Prime...nay, will stop using).
 
I replaced the filter wool last Sunday. As the next filter wool replacement will have to remain in the tank for almost 2 weeks, I could just replace the current wool on Friday, making the current wool 2 weeks - note that this is just the mechanical filtration that I regularly replace (so don't panic - that's my job!), I have kept the biological filtration pads in the filter for yonks, one approaching 3 years.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

What one tries to do is to follow the directions on the med.However,  I have always done water changes when medicating, but I follow some rules.
 
1. Try to do the wc on a day you will medicate. Do the the wc first and then medicate.
2. If you must change water between doses for some reason, you need to replace the amount of medication you removed. If you change 1/4 of the water, put a 1/4 dose into the new water going in.
3. If you must use a dechlor, it is best to prepare the new water in advance. Research your specific dechlor to determine if it will dissipate on its own or not. Some will only lose their ammonia detoxifying ability when it has actually been used up. You can also use a dechlor that does not detoxify ammonia even when dealing with chloramines this way. Once the chlorine part has been neutralized, the ammonia that remains will evaporate from the water in a day or two. You can insure/accelerate this if you agitate the new water with an airstone over night.

 

[Kaidonni]

The water is now standing, but I've covered most of the two buckets up with a wooden board over the top - is that okay, or will it interfere with the dissipation of the chlorine? Where the board doesn't cover, there's a very thin slit exposed for each bucket where the chlorine could escape.
 
I also had to use the bucket I normally empty dirty tank water into and clean the filter out in as well as my normal bucket. I swilled it in tap water, dried it with some kitchen towel, swilled it some more, dried again with kitchen towel, swilled, emptied but didn't dry it and filled it properly. I hope that was enough, and that it doesn't cause any issues. I don't normally have to rely on more than one bucket for clean water, but I do use three for dirty water (saves emptying the same one three times).

 

[Kaidonni]

Covered the buckets up completely to prevent smells from clean washing contaminating the water. Had to use a towel to cover the one side. Do the buckets need to be completely exposed to the open for the chlorine to effectively dissipate?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Exposed means maximum evaporation. Put an airstone in the container to help get the chlorine out.

 

[Kaidonni]

Well, I dumped the 21 litres I was leaving to stand because I honestly cannot trust the water. I want to perform a clean this evening, at least 50%, and if there is chloramine or there are any heavy metals in that water, I'm not helping the situation. If any chlorine has remained, I risk damaging my biological filter - something that I really cannot be fixing right now. If that went, these fish would have to be emergency rehomed. I also don't like the idea of exposing the water to open air for so long in case of any contamination by other sources.
 
I've been using a carbon pad since early afternoon to remove the Esha medicine, and replaced it with a fresh carbon pad this evening during a 50% water change that involved the use of Prime (just to make sure I'm using the carbon to it's maximum extent). The filter pads are stained green...urgh! For me personally, with limited buckets, heating apparatus, airstones (and associated air pumps), and concerns about water supply (regardless of what the water company website says*), changes of more than 10 or so litres using no dechlorinator of any sort - especially during such a tight timeframe - aren't feasible. I'd be taking the risk no matter what I do, I can't win, my OCD is having a feast. The fact that water has to be left standing at least 24-48 hours before all the other things my mind is tripping up on... Maybe I'm just trying to force the second treatment into this week when maybe, while the Esha has had some beneficial effect, it hasn't dealt with all the problems. Perhaps on Wednesday a double-dose of the one-day treatment might help, it might even be all that's needed to finish things off and get the fish entirely back to normal.
 
*My water company can't be bothered to update their website with the 2014 reporting year for water parameters...