Doh Moment

[Baccus]

Usually I am happy to see my various fish breeding, either watching the spawning rituals, finding the eggs or even the sudden surprise of unexpected fry appearing in the tank. But this evening (after a day of sudden cooler and drizzley weather a pleasant change to the hot humid drought we have been suffering) the two angels I suspected of being a pair went and proved it.
I happened to walk past their tank, glanced in and had a "oh no" moment as soon as I spied the eggs. The poor guppys don't have clue what happening all of a sudden they are being hunted from a log they have always previously been able to swim around. It sounds wrong but I actually hope this first spawning fails since I really had never planned on breeding angels, their only job was only to keep the ever expanding numbers of guppy fry in check in what is essentially a "spare" tank for all the guppys that don't meet our colour requirements for our desired characteristics.
So here is the first spawning of my angels, if (by some fluke the snails don't eat the eggs or the angels don't eat them themselves and the guppys don't clean up any fry) I guess the babies could be quite interesting in colour since the parents are quite nice in their own right.

 

[Akasha72]

well I for one hope the eggs and wrigglers survive. Can't beat having babies in my view. I just love watching them develop and grow. 
 
As to the colour of the any fry ... well that's all down to genetics and it's quite complicated. I'm also a member of another forum that deals with just angelfish. There is often talk about genetics and it both fascinates me and confuses me in equal measure. I've had my pair genetically mapped by the guys there and I know they have a blushing gene and a chocolate gene to become Smokey Blushing angels. So if mine breed any babies would be 25% chocolate, 25% blushing and 50% smokey blushing.
 
Looking at yours, you've got a koi by the looks of it but I'm not sure what the darker one is so any babies would have the koi gene for sure BUT ... they could revert back to the parents of the koi if they wern't pure koi and what ever the dark one's gene's are they would throw in something else entirely.... told you it was fascinating and confusing!!
 
Good luck with them. You'd be surprised how many angels get it right on the first attempt .... but sadly not mine!

 

[Baccus]

I have no doubt that simply because I don't have the room for any surviving babies to grow to sellable size that they probably will survive and thrive just to spit me. The tank is usually a grow out tank for BN fry to get them from the 1.5cm mark up to 4-5cm, plus there is a lot of my extra peppered corys in there which also often spawn to increase their number. The tank was originally just for excess guppies that have nothing wrong with them aside from being the wrong colour for our breeding plans. But because guppies did what guppies do best, their numbers where getting out of control. Enter 3 small angels.
The three small angels took no time in working out that guppy fry where easy pickings and grew quickly, so much so I had to remove  to another tank the smallest all white (with blushing genes) to another tank since the two biggest ones took to bullying it early on. After the bullying I had pretty much assumed that the bigger two where a pair, but had thought because they where not getting any particular conditioning that they probably wouldn't breed, which was fine by me.
Genetics of any creature can be really fascinating, I often marvel at the colour morphs and sexual linked characteristics in Gouldian finches, let alone split genes and all the confusion they can bring about because the host animal is not displaying the characteristic but is a carrier of it. The guppy project has been on going for around 7 or  8 years now and their genetics has been very interesting to tweek. From just the pale mostly blue males and female with just a blue tail, to our current strain of amazingly almost completely blue males (with blue lipstick) with extended dorsal fin and females that have blue tails, half black bodies, blue dorsal fins and also extended dorsal fins. Some people complain that my guppies are too hard to sex because they are so far removed from what most people think is the way to sex guppies of females being dull with only a little splash of colour. Shrimp are another inhabitant of my tanks that I sort of play with the colour characterisitics of. But shrimp can be the worst to try and work out their breeding lines since they have so much natural variation.
Both of the angels have the extended filament on the top and bottom of their tails. I recall half reading something about those extensions in a fish magazine but, didn't take a huge amount of notice since it was more of passing interest rather than a determined need to recall this information for a later date type thing.

 

[Akasha72]

it sounds like you've got your hands full already! No wonder more babies wern't on the agenda. It sounds like any surviving babies are going to have a fight on to survive and that might work in your favour. 
 
I'd love to know how this turns out so keep us posted

 

[Baccus]

My hands are certainly full with all the fish, shrimp and now snails since my notopala snails have now produced some babies which I am very happy about. Actually I need to work out how to remove the Ramshorn snails from the tank with the notopalas without removing miniscule notopala babies.
A couple of eggs have already gone white, so at least 3 eggs look like they are not fertile. The angels are being very attentive but not as blatantly aggressive as I was expecting them to be. They do chase the guppies away from the log area, but so far it looks like no real damage or injuries is being done to the guppies.
I am expecting if any wrigglers to emerge the  guppies will get their own pay back on the angels by eating the angel fish fry, and so goes the circle of life.
 
The female, although its not obvious in the pictures has a lovely green sheen body wash over her body.
 

 
 
And the male who you cant really see it in the pictures has iridescent green near his eye and extending onto the front of his gill plate.

 

[AquaPit]

Wow! Beatiful angels you got there!!!

I love the red eyed black one!!

Gorgeous!

 

[Baccus]

Thanks, I get so used to seeing them, I get a little immune to their wow factor. But they are pretty impressive and getting to quite a good size now considering how small they first where.

 

[Baccus]

It looks like I wont have to worry about a whole heap of angelfish fry this time round. A lot of the eggs have disappeared I suspect from the ever present snails eating them, and a lot more have gone totally white, which I am guessing like most other fish eggs means the eggs either aren't fertile or have died for some reason. There is still probably in excess of 50 + eggs that still look ok but they should (if they are going to) either hatch later today or sometime tomorrow.
Both parents are still attentive to the eggs, but seem blind to the snails that have discovered the eggs.

 

[Akasha72]

if the eggs are white they are infertile. They should remove them themselves but because this is their first time you can't expect too much from them. Good luck and keep us posted

 

[TallTree01]

Your angels look great Baccus.
Hopefully everything works out for you.

 

[RCA]

... I need to work out how to remove the Ramshorn snails from the tank with the notopalas without removing miniscule notopala babies...

I would use cucumber, as Ramshorns love this and will attach themselves to it. Then it will be a case of removing them into a container and looking for the ones you wish to keep. If you do this weekly, you should be able to reduce the Ramshorn population.

I have found my Assassins liked Ramshorns yet not the other snails, yet there is no guarantee of this.

Good luck.

 

[Baccus]

I checked the eggs yesterday afternoon and all the eggs had gone and the snails dispersed, so either the snails ate all the eggs or the angels got to stressed about the other fish in the tank and ate their own eggs.

 

[Akasha72]

it's most likely that the angels ate the eggs. It is true that if they feel the eggs have no chance of surviving they will eat them themselves before any other fish get the chance to. 
My male has always gone in and eaten the eggs when the lights have gone out. I've now given up all hope of getting any fry from my pair. They've not spawned now in well over 6 months