Discus Problem Again

[SaTiVa1984]

Hello all,

I think i have a major issue with my discus, Over the last 3 days he has become very shy, and will sit in a corner of my tank all day, with his fins clamped and looking dark.

Today he looks really unwell, so i switched off the lights and the air pump running a sponge filter that i am trying to cycle for a breeding tank, After a few minutes he came out, darted to the other side and hid behind some bog wood, then i noticed that he seemed to be slowly scratching his face on a small amazon sword plant, moving back and forth.

At first i thought he was just stressed due to the amount of changes i have made to the tank over this last week, but after seeing him scratching i fear its a lot worse.

He is eating as long as the food lands near him, he has no visible signs of illness that i can see other than clamped up fins and darkness, his poop looks black.

Majority of the tank changes were made the same day, about 5-6 days ago, no less than 1 hour after filing the tank back up my angels started laying eggs again, and this morning my black phantom tetras are spawning in the plants dropping eggs everywhere, the other 2 discus seem fine at the moment, however one of them is clamping his fins occasionally.

I did a 50% water change yesterday, and plan on another later today, since adding the floss, and seachem prime. i have noticed a slight oily surface on my tank which is also concerning me.

Tank Size 340l
Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5
PH 7.5
9 Neon tetras
9 Black neon tetras
9 Black widow tetras
1 Plec
2 Clown loach
3 Discus
4 Angels
4 Dwarf gouramis

Currently in process of removing the gouramis and the plec.

Recent changes Changed from plastic to fully planted, topped up the sand, changed tap water conditioner from nutrafin to seachem prime, added new filter floss to external filter, changed tank background from picture to pure black, added sponge filter to prep for breeding tank, changed an old bulb for a new freshwater one, and added a small piece of old bog wood that has been in my brothers tanks for a long time.

Also got rid of my other breeding pair of angels as the aggression in the tank was out of control.


Sorry for the wall of text, any help appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

As you undoubtedly know discus don't like changes in their environment or water conditions and I see you've made quite a few recently. The scratching may well just be stress due to the changes. But I note you haven't given a reading for GH which is important with discus. Also I note you're up north so is it possible you've had temperature fluctuations in the tank now that we've got snow?

Also, anecdotally, and from direct experience, I can tell you that some fish do not get along with Prime as a dechlorinator. It may just be the change of dechlorinator that is causing the face rubbing. Go back to the old one for a while and see what happens.

It's also possible that you've introduced some sort of toxin on the new plants that perhaps, being more sensitive, is only affecting the discus.

 

[SaTiVa1984]

Hi prime, i have not tested my water hardness for a week as i ran out of test strips for it, I cant give exact values but it always fell into the slightly hard bracket. (I use nutrafin liquid test for others).

I've had this discus for over a year now, he was bred locally by a private breeder so our water parameters are very similar, i have never had any real problems in my tank at all until now. (Except when he decided to jump out the tank last month)

Yea we have a had a few cold nights were the tank temp has dropped 1-2 degrees over night, but its usually a steady 28-29oc

Also after watching the discus within the last hour i noticed him having a white stringy poo, this is usually a sign of internal parasite? A friend gave me some eSHa Hexamita for discus disease when i first got him, and after reading the leaflet, all the first, and second stage symptoms now match for it:

* The infected fish separates itself from the group
* Loss of appetite
* Dull eyes (Not sure what to make of this but his eyes look normal)
* Darkening of colour of skin
* Apprehensive behaviour
* Slow reactions
* White stringy faeces (Only sometimes)

However he shows no sign of the Final stage symptoms, these include white puss, holes, rapidly spreading fin decay, lesions, flaky skin etc.

It also states in here that most discus carry HITH disease, and it only takes something to trigger it off, such has poor water quality, bad nutrition, or stress If this is true then i guess all the stress of changes could have triggered this off?

I'm unsure on whether to dose my tank with this or not, i have never been a fan of adding chemicals to the water, but this guy has gone down hill so fast these past few days i think i might just try it, what do you think?

 

[afremont]

Also, anecdotally, and from direct experience, I can tell you that some fish do not get along with Prime as a dechlorinator. It may just be the change of dechlorinator that is causing the face rubbing. Go back to the old one for a while and see what happens.

What have you seen? What kinds of fish and what issues? I did a quick google search and nothing jumped out, tell me more, please.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I don't think it could harm to treat with the eSHa med but the symptoms could equally be parasite or internal bacterial infection as well! If he's locally bred then the normal water conditions that discus are used to aren't as important but they still need to be stable. In the wild , for example, the temperature of their environment doesn't vary by much more than 0.5C

Certainly, whatever it is it is, was probably brought on by the stress of all the changes. What do you feed the discus, have you introduced any new food?

 

[SaTiVa1984]

I don't think it could harm to treat with the eSHa med but the symptoms could equally be parasite or internal bacterial infection as well! If he's locally bred then the normal water conditions that discus are used to aren't as important but they still need to be stable. In the wild , for example, the temperature of their environment doesn't vary by much more than 0.5C

Certainly, whatever it is it is, was probably brought on by the stress of all the changes. What do you feed the discus, have you introduced any new food?

Ok dosed the whole tank, the leaflet says its harmless to other fish and plants, now my tank looks illuminous green lol, this treatment also treats a wide range of problems such has gill flukes, intestinal disorders, dropsy, fungus and finrot, so lets see how that goes.

Ill try rectify the temp drops by adding an extra heater later today.

I always use frozen food, and occasionaly flakes, frozen is varried with daphnia, bloodworm, beef heart, and artemia, once a week i add some multivitamins to it before adding it to the tank also. i have thought about adding some garlic powder too but not sure how well that will go down with the fish.

 

[SaTiVa1984]

Just found what appear to be white lines on his body, the missus says she saw these yesterday, but i only just noticed them.

The lines are rounded in shape and appear on both sides of his body in the same place, i have added a pic (poor quality tho) of the line, and in the reflection you can make out the line on his other side:

They are only noticeable from certain angles when looking at the fish, either directly facing him, or from the back, side on they are invisible.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

That could be columnaris bacterial infection, a better picture (or a more detailed description) would help. It is brought on by stress so it makes sense here. Treatment is with a strong external anti-bacterial.

Is he breathing heavily and can you see any abnormality in the gills?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Also, anecdotally, and from direct experience, I can tell you that some fish do not get along with Prime as a dechlorinator. It may just be the change of dechlorinator that is causing the face rubbing. Go back to the old one for a while and see what happens.

What have you seen? What kinds of fish and what issues? I did a quick google search and nothing jumped out, tell me more, please.

As I say it's only anecdotal evidence but post number 9 in this thread is typical: http/forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/showthread.php?t=81635

I've seen (but can't now locate) many more similar experiences. It appears to be when changing from one declorinator to Prime that people notice the problem. That's how it happened with me, I changed from one, that I can't remember now, to Prime and I experienced massive flashing of all the fish in the tank. Unfortunately I didn't go back to the original because I had none left and I persisted with the Prime. Eventually the flashing subsided. (incidentally, that's where I got my nick from because of the Ordeal I was having with the Prime.)

 

[SaTiVa1984]

That could be columnaris bacterial infection, a better picture (or a more detailed description) would help. It is brought on by stress so it makes sense here. Treatment is with a strong external anti-bacterial.

Is he breathing heavily and can you see any abnormality in the gills?

He seems to be breathing ok, he wont let me get close enough to check the gills properly but i will keep trying to get the chance.

The lines look just like a much paler part of his body, no fuzzyness to them or any redness etc.

The lines on both side of his body are exactly the same shape and length.

I will try and get some better pictures and post them asap, its kinda difficult has he hides as soon as i go near the tank.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

It's difficult to tell from the pic but the lines look so symmetrical I wonder if it isn't something that's just natural to discus fish (the apparent illness aside). Perhaps a natural part of his response to stress.

Hopefully someone who is more expert with discus might be along to add to that.

 

[SaTiVa1984]

It's difficult to tell from the pic but the lines look so symmetrical I wonder if it isn't something that's just natural to discus fish (the apparent illness aside). Perhaps a natural part of his response to stress.

Hopefully someone who is more expert with discus might be along to add to that.

Yea the pic sucks, ive tried with another camara but i think the green tinge from the eSHa meds are affecting the pitures, got a friend coming later with a decent cam so might have better results.

The lines are perfectly symmetrical, if you look at him face on you can see both lines perfectly like its his natural shape, and like i said earlier they are invisible from side on which i think is due to light reflecting on him.

Also the gills look fine, nothing out of the ordinary.

Thanks for your input prime, i will continue with these meds for now (3 day dosage) and go from there, if i get some decent pics later ill post em.

 

[SaTiVa1984]

Just a quick update:

On the 3rd and final day of dosing the eSHa meds now, and he is looking a little better, his colour is back but fins are still clamped most of the time. The other discus seem fine, infact if anything they have perked up a little and become more active.

Really can not wait to get my hands in the tank tho, the plec has smashed majority of my plants out, and the water being green just looks filthy

Also woke up to a surprise this morning, my black neon tetras were spawning into the plants this is the first time i have seen them do this and find it amazing how they could while the tank is pumped with meds.

 

[SaTiVa1984]

Don't want to jump the gun but he is looking really well at the minute

I think prime might be a major factor in this issue tho, thinking back i first noticed him look ill a few hours after first adding it, and when i did a 50% water change that same night he perked up for 30 minutes, I also think i may have overdosed the tank a little with prime, i was using the cap and adding at least 2-3 large drops per bucket, when i should have been adding the maximum of 1-2 small drops every second bucket

So tonight after looking at my green tank i decided to flush out the meds with a massive water change, before i started i checked the discus and he was still looking very ill, dark, pale lines, and fins clamped hiding in the corner, i started with a 40% change, adding the absolute minimum amount of prime to the new water, almost immediately the discus colours came back and gradually he let loose his fins.

After noticing that, i decided to do a rolling water water change (hose pipe syphoning tank water outside, while i refill with fresh water via buckets) i spent about an hour at this so easily changed the full tank at least once, all the time making sure i only added the minimum amount of prime, then sat back and watched him. within an hour he looked perfect, but started to itch again.

If it is the prime, it seems to be only affecting him which i find weird.

 

[SaTiVa1984]

Things seem to have took a turn for the worse again Really at my wits end now.

The ill discus is now swimming about with fins up, and eating really well, however he seems to have some sort of white fuzz growing on him, last night it was above his eye, now this morning it seems to be on his gill and on the top of his eye, also he is acting really strange with the other discus, the best way to explain it is if you have ever watched those documentary's were big fish let the little fish eat parasites off them, it looks exactly like that. He will stalk the smaller discus then go sideways and fully flare up his fins, followed by the little guys pecking on him, i took a video on my phone, quality aint great but you can see what i am talking about:



Also i have noticed the plec having very white poo, so decided to treat the tank with a wormer (Flubendazole-based) to treat gill flukes, body flukes, and intestinal helminth's, now this morning i get up and see 1 of my clown loach laid head first in the middle of the tank, at first i thought he was dead (i know all about the playing dead trick they do) but after i startled it, it got up but swam like it had issues, it did a barrel roll and landed in the plants, i fished it out and it went in the hospital tank, now its just laid upside down in there, my other loach is also showing some of the same symptoms but every time i try to catch him he darts off and hides.

At the moment i am doing 50-60% water changes per day, while i scratch my head and ask for advice on what to do...

Please help.

*Edit.. some pics