Discus Debate?

[KathyM]

I thought I'd come on here and see what you lot thought of what I read in an aquarium book the other day.

The book was fairly new (was flicking through it at someone else's house so can't give name/author) and it said basically that:

1. Discus aren't as fragile as people make out.

2. Discus can live in "community" tanks.

3. The proof of the above two is when people don't look into it first and just chuck fish in which do great.

Some other opinions I've had from asking elsewhere (not endorsed by me either way as I have no experience as yet):

4. Angels and discus live in the same waters in the wild and therefore can live together very well.

5. As counter to above, piranhas inhabit the waters of many other fish, but we don't keep them in with them in home aquaria.

6. Discus have to live in hotter water than my angels (my tank is at 81F).

7. Angels spread killer diseases to discus (I thought it was a worm issue only so any information much appreciated).


I'd be interested in your view on this if you have experience with discus and angels together (with good or bad results), as I've had a lot of advice recently saying the old view of not keeping discus and angels together is fallacy, and that done properly it is attainable without detriment to either. And yet I've had others say that it's impossible, the discus will die of stress or angel-carried illnesses, and won't be happy in the temperature I have my tank. All the advice I've put here have been from experienced owners/breeders.

I thought maybe we could open the debate politely without arguing and see if I and others can learn from this as there really is a lot of controversy surrounding this, and to be honest I don't know who's views to go along with as they're so different!

Anyone up for educating me?

 

[CAC]

Ok. The first thing i did when i wanted to keep discus was to see what other fish i could keep with them, and most sites i looked on said that angels would make great companions to discus, because of their peaceful nature...but angels arent very peaceful, and are much more active and quicker than discus...

From the majority of discus breeders that i have talked to, none of them have said that it is a good idea to keep angels with discus...mainly because of this parasite/worm thing that the angels surrposedly carry...and you often see products on the market that eliminate these worms, which i think that discus can get without angels, but haveing angels is just going to increase these chances...

This is just what ive read and been told, from when i was looking into discus, a few months ago...but i too would love to find out the "real" truth about the subject, because there are so many oppinons about this subject...

Mikey

 

[KathyM]

Thanks Mikey - you've run into the same info as me, and it's a mixed bag isn't it?!

 

[CAC]

Yeah, ive spoken to the guy from gbdiscus, Gary, and he said that its not a good thing...
i might ask him if he would explain why, but i have to go now, so ill ask tomorrow...

Mikey

P.S. I hope we can finally get this cleared up

 

[KathyM]

Thanks Mikey - any information on why can be researched so that'd be great

 

[Tolak]

Angels & discus often carry the same internal protizoan. Discus, being more sensitive fish, will get stressed easier, and this will cause their immune system to suffer. With any wild caught angels or discus, a worming & anti-protizoan treatment is reccommended because of this. They get way stressed.

Temperature is not an issue, angels will handle high temps without a problem. I've had them near 100F, they act no different, other than fry growing at an incredible rate. It's a breeder's trick.

The biggest problems with angels & discus is temperment, and eating habits. Juvinile angels with adult discus is the best start if you want to mix them, in a large, understocked tank. This is for a show tank, all the breeders I know keep species tanks for fish they breed, no matter what the fish.

Adult angels, being more aggressive, will stress discus that aren't well acclimated to their tank. Angels gobble their food, discus are grazers. This also causes stress. Stress, weakened immune system, bam, sick discus. Breeding pairs of discus will be just as territorial as any cichlids, this is the reason starting with larger discus & juvie angels works best. The smaller angels will tolerate the aggression better, the discus will feel less threatened, and a pecking order will develop over time.


The best product on the market for internal protizoans is metronidazole. It's the ingredient in Hex-A-Mit, and most other products.

 

[KathyM]

Thank you very much Tolak - that's really interesting.

I wonder if success varies dependant on angelfish temperament then? I seem to have fairly docile "grazing" angels, although they're still young.

To be honest, much of this is theoretical as I have 7 angels plus other fish in my 6 x 2 x 2 and buying enough discus for the discus to be happy would probably overstock me?

 

[Tolak]

Much of it will depend on the temperment of the angels. This can be very unpredictable, as they mature they can get very territorial, or remain fairly docile. That is why it is better to start with the discus, preferrably a group of juviniles. Eventually a pair will form, these are the 2 you will want to keep, or 2 pairs in a very large tank. Now that you have some acclimated discus, that are larger and comfortable in their surroundings you can add some juvie angels. out of these you may get a pair, if they are compatable keep them. If they are aggressive, sell or trade them. You will eventually come up with a compatable pair, or 2 pairs in a larger tank.

You will want to quar the new angels, and this is one of the few situations where I would reccommend medicating well fish, as a preventative measure. Maintain the tank as a discus tank.

 

[KathyM]

Ahhh right, that would rule it out for me then as I already have the angels. Thanks for the advice

 

[kev_kb]

1. That is true, if you fully understand their requirements and provide them.

2. Depends what you mean by "community" tanks I suppose. It depends on the fish and of course the water parameters. If you take a community tank of live bearers kept at 25C with very very hard water then no, you could not keep discus in the tank. If you have fairly soft water, a slightly higher temp and say some rams and some tetras, then yes.

3. As already mentioned it would depend on the tank. However, I think anyone who would do this with any fish should not keep them at all.

4. You cannot compare the wild with a glass tank, it's a closed system, the wild is not!

5. Very true, see 4.

6. Discus require higher temps than standard community fish. 28-30C will work, in my experience closer to 30 is better. Sorry I work with Fs. Angels are not as delicate as discus and will adapt better to water parameters that are not ideal.

7. I have read lots on this too, actually I read it after I tried mixing angels and discus. I would not take the risk now. My situation didn't work out as the angels are generally faster and eat more aggresively. My angels bullied the discus away from food and generally harrassed them. The discus were fairly large, and the angels smaller. In the end I took the angels back to the LFS and I would never consider mixing them again.

In reality there isn't really that much difference in discus views. I think you will find the majority of discus owners will keep them in soft water and choose gentle tank mates that are suitable for them, and are very unlikely to cause problems. At the end of the day if you find a good discus supplier/breeder and buy good quality fish and provide them with the same water parameters they are used to then you should not have any problems keeping them.

I'd also like to add to point 2 & 3 that people need to be aware that discus should be round (not rugby ball shaped or anything) and should live around 10 years. I have seen people on some forums (not this one) that claim to keep discus in all sort of 'community' setups, but mostly they end up stunting them or they are very short lived.

 

[Tolak]

Thanks kev, I was hoping to get someone in here with more discus knowledge than I.

 

[KathyM]

Thanks you so much Kev - your post clears it all up for me. I really appreciate your reply.

Just wanted to point out that the numbered views I posted in the first post were not my personal views, just comments that kept re-occurring when I was looking into things.

Like I said before though, I think with 7 angels and 2 Rainbow Cichlids in there (plus 2 Rams, 10 tetras, 6 cories and 4 plecs), firstly discus wouldn't be suitable (putting aside the angels, the Rainbows wouldn't be good either)and secondly, we'd be well overstocked - I think we're getting close with what we've got to being overstocked as it is, as it's only a 6 x 2 x 2 (150g).

To be honest I didn't ask this to see if we could have them (although if I'd got the overwhelming view we could then I'd be tempted), but more because people had actually suggested them to us with our setup, and I'd heard differently.

I really appreciate the replies - maybe it will come in handy for others?

 

[Rafael Dilone]

I thought I'd come on here and see what you lot thought of what I read in an aquarium book the other day.

The book was fairly new (was flicking through it at someone else's house so can't give name/author) and it said basically that:

1. Discus aren't as fragile as people make out.

2. Discus can live in "community" tanks.

3. The proof of the above two is when people don't look into it first and just chuck fish in which do great.

Some other opinions I've had from asking elsewhere (not endorsed by me either way as I have no experience as yet):

4. Angels and discus live in the same waters in the wild and therefore can live together very well.

5. As counter to above, piranhas inhabit the waters of many other fish, but we don't keep them in with them in home aquaria.

6. Discus have to live in hotter water than my angels (my tank is at 81F).

7. Angels spread killer diseases to discus (I thought it was a worm issue only so any information much appreciated).


I'd be interested in your view on this if you have experience with discus and angels together (with good or bad results), as I've had a lot of advice recently saying the old view of not keeping discus and angels together is fallacy, and that done properly it is attainable without detriment to either. And yet I've had others say that it's impossible, the discus will die of stress or angel-carried illnesses, and won't be happy in the temperature I have my tank. All the advice I've put here have been from experienced owners/breeders.

I thought maybe we could open the debate politely without arguing and see if I and others can learn from this as there really is a lot of controversy surrounding this, and to be honest I don't know who's views to go along with as they're so different!

Anyone up for educating me?

Well discus may be as fragile as you said but if you want to have a happy healthie discus you have to treat it with lots of care. Take into account that discus come from the amazon where it rains frequently so the water quality is very good as new water is replace every day. Also it is true that discus do inhabit warm waters. That it is why you should be careful at what temperature you keep them at. Also discus do make great community fishes. They do live very well with cardinal tetras because they as well inhabit warm water and share the same water stats. It is also a good idea not to have angel fish with discus as many people in other post have talk about the same problem with the paracite they give discus. Also just because a fish lives in the same water stats does not mean they can live together. You also have to take behavior and there health into consideration.

 

[kev_kb]

Thanks you so much Kev - your post clears it all up for me. I really appreciate your reply.

Your welcome, I hope this thread helps others considering keeping discus and maybe yourself too in the future, it's a perfect excuse to buy another tank

 

[KathyM]

LOL - got a spare tank, just got nowhere to put it But yes, if I win the lottery and manage to get a new house, then I'll definitely look into it in more depth - discus are beautiful