Dead Gourami And Neons :(

[nikkifro8994]

About 2 weeks ago, I got a 10 gallon tank. I cycled it (1 week, seeded from another tank) and then bought some fish. My tank was fully cycled (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 10 nitrate) before I bought them. I bought 6 neon tetras and a dwarf fire red gourami about 5 days ago

. Yesterday when I checked my tanks, 3 neons were dead

. But I only found 2 corpses. I was searching everywhere for the third. Under the log, in the plants, even in the filter. When I picked up the filter cartridge a decaying cicada was laying in the bottom of the filter. I removed the bug, but I couldn't find the third dead fish. I think the gourami may have eaten it. I tested my water once I got the bug and dead fish out, but all levels were normal (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, low nitrate). When I checked the tank today, my gourami was dead

. I tested the water again and my levels were still normal.

I am going to let the tank sit with 3 neons in it for a week or 2. If the 3 live, then I will add 3 more and another gourami. If not, then I will break down the tank and start over. I am doing a partial water change (20%) tomorrow.

Should I change the filter cartridge as well since there was a dead bug in it? Or should I only change the filter if I break down the tank? My filter has 3 parts (foam, carbon, bio-max), and I have the same model on another (very well established) tank. I can always seed the tank to jump start a cycle again.
What is going on in my tank? Was it the decaying bug in my filter that killed 3 neons and my gourami?

Thanks!
Nikki

 

[the_lock_man]

A few questions

How did you seed the filter?
In the following week, did you add any sort of ammonia source?
What sort of test kit are you using?

 

[KittyKat]

About 2 weeks ago, I got a 10 gallon tank. I cycled it (1 week, seeded from another tank) and then bought some fish. My tank was fully cycled (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 10 nitrate) before I bought them.

Did you add ammonia for the 1 week? How much was the filter processing in 12 hours? Did you get double zeros every day for the week (i.e. qualifying week)?

[…] I tested my water once I got the bug and dead fish out, but all levels were normal (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, low nitrate).

Is it a liquid test kit? Not expired? How did you acclimatise and what hardness is your water? Were the fish healthy when you bought them? How long had they been at the shop? No diseased/dead fish in any other tanks on the same filtration system + 1 tank either side?

I am going to let the tank sit with 3 neons in it for a week or 2. If the 3 live, then I will add 3 more and another gourami. If not, then I will break down the tank and start over. I am doing a partial water change (20%) tomorrow.

I would recommend that you go for a Betta or a 1m 2f honey gouramis over a dwarf gourami because dwarf gouramis are *very* sensitive to water quality (and I think they should have more space, unless it's a 2 ft long tank).

Should I change the filter cartridge as well since there was a dead bug in it? Or should I only change the filter if I break down the tank? My filter has 3 parts (foam, carbon, bio-max), and I have the same model on another (very well established) tank. I can always seed the tank to jump start a cycle again.

No, how would a dead bug affect a filter sponge? Did you seed from the other filter? If yes, you should wait at least 6 weeks since removing media from it, before removing any more. You should only replace sponges when there is something physically wrong with them, and replace no more than 1/3 of your media every 6 weeks. I recommend that you use a sponge or bio-media instead of the carbon because unless you're replacing the carbon every few days, it isn't doing anything more than being bio-media.

What is going on in my tank? Was it the decaying bug in my filter that killed 3 neons and my gourami?

Unlikely, unless it was actually a dragonfly larvae, in which case it could have eaten the neons. I think your filter isn't fully cycled (only partially) and your test kit is not giving you a correct reading

 

[nikkifro8994]

It is a liquid test kit from API. I took the sponge out of the established tank and put it in the filter of the new tank. I also added stress zyme. I added stress zyme to my betta tank to help start the cycle and he has had no problems. I acclimated by letting the bag float for 20 minutes so the temp was the same. then I pulled out about 1/3 of the water in the bag and dumped it out and replaced it with tank water. I let that sit for 10-15 minutes and do it 2 or 3 more times. all fish were healthy when i bought them. the neons had been there for 2 days and the gourami for 3 or 4. no sick fish around them at the store either.

 

[KittyKat]

It is a liquid test kit from API.

Is it past it's use-by-date? Even if it is not, remember that even unreadable amounts of ammonia can harm fish.

I took the sponge out of the established tank and put it in the filter of the new tank.

So what happened over the next week, while you let the tank sit, was that approximately 50% of the bacteria on the sponge died off. Without an ammonia source (household ammonia or fish), in a running tank, approximately 10% of the bacteria die off per day. So, at the end of the week, it would have been safe to add a maximum of 1/6th of the stock in the tank you took the sponge from (assuming you took approximately 1/3rd of the media from the original filter).

To cycle a tank, one needs to add a source of ammonia (usually household ammonia) until the filter can process a set amount in 12 hours (I would recommend 4 ppm in a 10 gallon tank for 6 neons and 1 dwarf gourami), then one needs to do a qualifying week, which is when one observes 0 ppm readings at the 12 hour point after a daily dosing of the set ammonia amount without water changes for 7 consecutive days.

I also added stress zyme. I added stress zyme to my betta tank to help start the cycle and he has had no problems.

1 Betta probably produces 1/7 of the ammonia that 6 neons and a dwarf gourami do. That's a big difference. It is unlikely that Stress Zyme does anything useful.

I acclimated by letting the bag float for 20 minutes so the temp was the same. then I pulled out about 1/3 of the water in the bag and dumped it out and replaced it with tank water. I let that sit for 10-15 minutes and do it 2 or 3 more times.

This is only temperautre acclimatisation. Water parameter acclimatisation is much more important as moving a fish from one water hardness to another can kill it quite easily. Read http/aquariumadventure.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/importance-of-acclimatisation/ and http/aquariumadventure.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/methods-of-acclimatisation/ for more information on why it is important to acclimatise for water parameters and how to do so.

all fish were healthy when i bought them. the neons had been there for 2 days and the gourami for 3 or 4. no sick fish around them at the store either.

At the moment, my expectation is that the cause of death was "pH shock" combined with ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning.

 

[mark4785]

Without a doubt I think the seeding is to blame. During one of my fishless cycles, I added filter media to the cycling tank from my pond filter system. The effect was that all the ammonia got processed much quicker in the cycling tank, however, the nitrite level increased and stalled. I suspect either your ammonia or nitrite has stalled for a period.

Also, I personally wouldn't deem my tank fully cycled after transferring mature filter media from an established aquarium containing things (i.e. food/fish) which are producing ammonia, to an aquarium that you have not added any form of ammonia to. It is likely that during that particular week, the nitrifying bacteria on that mature sponge completely died off due to having no ammonia to 'feed' on.

 

[Reret]

I'm sorry about your fish

 

[nikkifro8994]

It is a liquid test kit from API.

Is it past it's use-by-date? Even if it is not, remember that even unreadable amounts of ammonia can harm fish.


[font="'Comic Sans MS"]I have had the test kit for a month. It is definitely not expired.[/font]

I took the sponge out of the established tank and put it in the filter of the new tank.

So what happened over the next week, while you let the tank sit, was that approximately 50% of the bacteria on the sponge died off. Without an ammonia source (household ammonia or fish), in a running tank, approximately 10% of the bacteria die off per day. So, at the end of the week, it would have been safe to add a maximum of 1/6th of the stock in the tank you took the sponge from (assuming you took approximately 1/3rd of the media from the original filter).


[font="'Comic Sans MS"]My tap has ammonia in it. about 3 ppm. I put in water conditioner and pour it in the cycling tank. that would be my ammonia source.[/font]

To cycle a tank, one needs to add a source of ammonia (usually household ammonia) until the filter can process a set amount in 12 hours (I would recommend 4 ppm in a 10 gallon tank for 6 neons and 1 dwarf gourami), then one needs to do a qualifying week, which is when one observes 0 ppm readings at the 12 hour point after a daily dosing of the set ammonia amount without water changes for 7 consecutive days.

I also added stress zyme. I added stress zyme to my betta tank to help start the cycle and he has had no problems.

1 Betta probably produces 1/7 of the ammonia that 6 neons and a dwarf gourami do. That's a big difference. It is unlikely that Stress Zyme does anything useful.

[font="'Comic Sans MS"]I used stress zyme in my guppy tank as well. 10 gallons with 6 guppies to start.
[/font]

I acclimated by letting the bag float for 20 minutes so the temp was the same. then I pulled out about 1/3 of the water in the bag and dumped it out and replaced it with tank water. I let that sit for 10-15 minutes and do it 2 or 3 more times.

This is only temperautre acclimatisation. Water parameter acclimatisation is much more important as moving a fish from one water hardness to another can kill it quite easily. Read http/aquariumadven...cclimatisation/ and http/aquariumadven...cclimatisation/ for more information on why it is important to acclimatise for water parameters and how to do so.

[font="'Comic Sans MS"]When the bag floats, the temp changes. once temp is the same, I pull out 1/3 of the water and replace it with tank water. Then it sits for 10-15 minutes and I repeat the process 2-3 more times until the parameters in the bag are the same as the tank.[/font]

all fish were healthy when i bought them. the neons had been there for 2 days and the gourami for 3 or 4. no sick fish around them at the store either.

At the moment, my expectation is that the cause of death was "pH shock" combined with ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning.

[font="'Comic Sans MS"]The fish were acclimated to the ph of my tank. and there was/is no ammonia or nitrite in the tank. only 10 ppm nitrate. I still have 3 active neons.[/font]

 

[the_lock_man]

Your tap water has 3ppm ammonia in it? Sheesh.

 

[nikkifro8994]

Your tap water has 3ppm ammonia in it? Sheesh.

yes it does. which is probably not very good when i do water changes

 

[Clarousel]

Sorry to hear about your loss. Hope your 3 remaining neons are doing okay!

 

[This Old Spouse]

I think it just might be a case of new tank shock for the fish. Both breeds are highly sensitive to tank conditions, and prefer a well-established tank to do well. And if your tap water is 3 ppm be sure you use StressCoat+ or Prime to dechlorinate. And call the health department.

 

[KittyKat]

It is a liquid test kit from API.

Is it past it's use-by-date? Even if it is not, remember that even unreadable amounts of ammonia can harm fish.

I have had the test kit for a month. It is definitely not expired.

Is it possible for you to have someone else test the water with a different kit?

My tap has ammonia in it. about 3 ppm. I put in water conditioner and pour it in the cycling tank. that would be my ammonia source.

In how many hours did this drop to double 0s? 3 ppm is very high, you might want to check what the legal maximum limit is in your country.

I acclimated by letting the bag float for 20 minutes so the temp was the same. then I pulled out about 1/3 of the water in the bag and dumped it out and replaced it with tank water. I let that sit for 10-15 minutes and do it 2 or 3 more times.

This is only temperautre acclimatisation. Water parameter acclimatisation is much more important as moving a fish from one water hardness to another can kill it quite easily. Read http/aquariumadven...cclimatisation/ and http/aquariumadven...cclimatisation/ for more information on why it is important to acclimatise for water parameters and how to do so.

When the bag floats, the temp changes. once temp is the same, I pull out 1/3 of the water and replace it with tank water. Then it sits for 10-15 minutes and I repeat the process 2-3 more times until the parameters in the bag are the same as the tank.

You just repeated that you did not acclimatise for water hardness: it takes hours of multiple (at least 20) small (up to 10%) water additions to acclimatise for hardness. The links I posted earlier explain why changing few (2-3) lots of water over a short period of time (under 3 hours) with different water parameters is dangerous to the fish: please read them, and ask if there is something you do not understand. The second link explains how to acclimatise for water hardness without the need to keep constantly going over to the new fish and manually adding more water, while also being more thorough with the acclimatisation, which makes the process less effort.

The pH is directly related to water hardness, but in itself is not the cause for what most people call "pH shock", the problem is actually "water hardness shock".

I still have 3 active neons.

Level of activity does not always correspond to the health of the fish.