Cycling Query - Simple Answers Please!

Ch4rlie

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Hello y'all,
 
I have been reading this forum loads of stuff about cycling tanks and it seems that the more I read the less I know!!! 
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I am no scientist thats for darn sure! 
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Anyway, I would appreciate a laymans answer if possible as simple is goooood!
 
I am currently doing a Fishless Cycle of a 90 litre (23 US gallon) tank.
 
Has live plants (and bloomin' snails that just won't go away!!!)
 
Have just finished the first week of cycle (day 7 now)
 
Am using API Freshwater Master Test Kit.
 
I have tested my tap water first of all - 
pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0.25 ppm
Nitrite - 0.25 ppm
Nitrate - 20 ppm
 
Then on first day (18th July) tested tank water - 
pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0.50 ppm
Nitrite - 0.25 ppm
Nitrate - 40 ppm
 
I did do a small 15% water change on 2nd day as water was cloudy due to probably me not washing gravel thoroughly enough. And took out 3 unsuitable plants and replaced with new plants.
 
2 days ago tested tank water - (added ammonia to dosage of 3ppm 5 days ago, all previous tests were same results as below)
pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 4.0 ppm
Nitrite - 0.25 ppm
Nitrate - 20/40 ppm
 
Today tested tank water - 
Ph - 7.6
Ammonia - 2 ppm
Nitrite - 0.25 ppm
Nitrate - 20 ppm
 
Do not have a GH/KH test kit yet but plan to purchase one in near future. So do not know the levels of those yet.
 
Now I know its far too early for any conclusive results of this cycle. And think plants may be consuming some ammonia this is possibly why this level has dropped but was not expecting to drop this quickly.
 
But can anyone tell me if am on the right tracks as am getting paranoid about these tests! (am I doing this right, should i add more ammonia, have i got the right type of ammonia, are my plants ok, should i do a water change, should I, should i do this, should do that.... etc etc)  
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Also would appreciate if anyone could tell me what should be the next step and when. 
 
Ta very muchly!! 
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Do not add any more ammonia until it has dropped to zero or nearabouts.  Overdosing ammonia is the worst thing you can do right now.  No need for water changes either.  Just keep watching ammonia and nitrite and follow the Cycling guide instructions.  And don't panic :)  this will take time.
 
Hi there, welcome. I'm pretty new to fish keeping too, but I'd say you going about it just about exactly the right way! First of all, very well done for doing a fishless cycle, you'll see loads of benefits from it.

As daize says, I'd also leave the water changes for now. The cloudiness you saw could well have been due to new substrate dust, but, it could also have been a bacterial bloom. Both of which are normal, except next time, rinse the gravel/sand a bit more thoroughly to avoid that in the future.

I believe what you are aiming for, ideally, is to have the ammonia levels reduce to 0 about 24 hours after adding a dose. When that happens, you should be pretty much there!

Good luck and keep us all posted!

Edit...sorry, I also forgot to say that you shouldn't worry too much about your hardness tests for the moment. I think what you would normally find is that any fish you buy locally will already be used to your type of local water properties anyway.
 
If you ignore all of the math and just follow the steps on the cycling guide you should be fine. Understanding and using the math would be of great benefit in adding the ammonia.

Is the ammonia you added just regular ammonia? You have to make sure there is nothing else in it..

There is a graph on the cycling tour tank section listed in the previous post that helped me understand a lot better.

If you need help with the math I will be glad to help. And there are many people who will correct any misguided information I might give.
 
Let me start by asking if you read the Cycling Your First Tank article.
 
Next, I am unclear about what you did. When did you add the first ammonia and how much. I am not sure how many additions you have done or when. Your numbers are a tad confusing without knowing about the ammonia additions. They are also not really possible regarding the last two tests. Let me try to explain why.
 
The chemistry involved with the nitrogen cycle itself as well as for the test kits means that certain relationships must exist. If one adds 1 ppm of ammonia according to an API test kit, it should eventually turn into 2.6 ppm of nitrite on an API kit. Now this presumes there are no nitrite converting bacteria present. So all the ammonia would turn into measurable nitrite. However, in reality there are some amount of the nitrite converting bacteria present and they will be multiplying because there is more nitrite than they can handle. The result is you will never actually get a reading of 2.6 ppm, you will see something lower.
 
It is the same for ammonia. After one adds the very first dose of ammonia, the level stays the same for a day or two as the bacteria multiply, then levels begin to drop faster and faster. The next time you add this amount of ammonia it drops much faster. But you still get a reading initially.
 
The point is when the ammonia drops it means nitrite must rise and by more ppm than ammonia drops. So you report:
 
2 days ago:     Ammonia - 4.0 ppm  Nitrite - 0.25 ppm
And Today:     Ammonia - 2.0 ppm   Nitrite - 0.25 ppm
 
Now 2 ppm of ammonia has gone which means 5.2 ppm of nitrite should have been created. But your nitrite levels are unchanged. Since the ammonia bacteria reproduce faster than the nitrite ones, we always get to the 0 ammonia point well before nitrite gets even close to 0. This means your nitrite should have gone up by a few points at least.
 
The nitrate test is worthless, but at least the nitrate should not be dropping. I would forget that kit, at least for now.
 
Now we get to the wild card. The live plants. They do eat ammonia, they do eat nitrate, the don't eat nitrite. But if they are taking up enough ammonia to prevent nitrite from being created, your ammonia readings should go from 4 ppm to 0 pretty fast. Yet 2 days later 1/2 the ammonia appears still to be there. So your plants are not preventing nitrite from rising or ammonia bacteria from multiplying.
 
Here is what I suggest you try, a reset of the tank. Do as big a water change as possible. If needed do two smaller ones in a row to protect plants. Add the normal dose of dechlor with the return water. Once the water changes are done, test for ammonia an nitrite. Then use the site ammonia calculator to determine how much ammonia you need to get the tank to 3 ppm, less any ammonia your post water change test showed. For example, if you tested and got .25 ppm, add 2.75 of new ammonia; if your test read .5 ppm, then add 2.5 ppm, etc. Do one other thing- when you put put in the volume of your tank, enter a number = 90% of the tank volume according to the manufacturer. If its a 50L tank, enter 45L etc.
 
Next, test for ammonia in 12 hours. If it has dropped, test for nitrite as well. If ammonia has not dropped, test it again in another 12 hours (test nitrite too). If your plants are taking up ammonia the reading should drop. If you have ammonia bacs present, they will also be converting some ammonia and you should see this because nitrite levels should rise.
 
Once you have done this, PM the results and we will go from there. Be assured that doing this will in no way slow or undo any progress made thus far. What it will do is make sure we have a good handle on what is going on in the tank right now.
 
TwoTank - Righto, ok, yes I have read the Cycling Your First Tank article many times, like I said, the more I read the less I know!!
 
I added the first dose of ammonia 6 days ago, on the 18th July, 4 days after setting up my tank (could not get hold of ammonia sooner at the time). And dosed to 3pmm according to this site's ammonia calculator.
 
That is the only dose of Ammonia I have done.
 
I have double checked my results and Nitrite levels have not changed at all as I originally reported. Therefore you see why am asking about these tests and why I was getting confused. (My test kit expires in 2018 so that should be fine to start with)
 
BTW Have to say I have suspicions about the ammonia I bought. Its from a UK hardware store, Homebase, and says 9.5% Ammonia Hydroxide but absolutely no other information so may be other chemicals involved. I got info to buy this bottle from a forum and matches exactly what they say, but when shake the bottle it froths, and bubbles do not go down for a while. Did not realise this until a few days ago when I read someone's comment saying bottle should not froth when shaken. So this may be a contributing factor?
 
As you say, plants can change or throw results a bit and was aware of that but thought would be beneficial for a cycle as well as for the fish. Perhaps some other tests can be carried out by people in the know so comparisons can be made between no plants cycle and planted cycles. May help for future references if thats possible at all. Just an idea anyway.
 
Will do as you suggest and do a large water change tomorrow or perhaps Sat, and probably, say 70% or more would you say would be best? And of course add the water dechlorinater as instructed on bottle to the letter.
 
I have ordered a new bottle of ammonia that is specially adapted for aquariums use and is 35% so will be very careful about dosages to 3ppm according to ammonia calculator, hope to get that tomorrow or Sat at latest.
 
Will post new results as soon as get them to try to get to bottom of this.
 
Thanks very much for your help and clear advice.
 
I would not change any water. To do so would be to start over essentially from what I would understand.
 
Well, seems am getting conflicting advice here.
 
However, I have been on this forum for about a week or so now, and TwoTankAmin seems to be well known and respected in his field by others on this forum so I feel he/she may be best to follow at this point in time.
 
May be the wrong thing to do but one can only learn by doing this and inevitably, mistakes will be made along the way. I have no experience in fish keeping so cannot say one way or the other who's right.
 
Lets hope things will turn out as i hope they will.
 
Thanks 
 
Changing the water will not cause any such thing to happen. Especially since he will add back the ammonia. If there is indeed only .25 ppm of nitrite present, removing that is inconsequential to the process.
 
But the reply does make things much clearer. here is what i now believe went on;
 
1. Dosed ammonia to get 3 ppm but it tested out at 4. Reason, did not reduce tank volume by at least 10% when calculating. test kit error to the extent as ammonia rises it should look more like the next higher reading and should be read that way. Potentially ammonia in tap.
 
2. Normal progression is for nitrite to show up about 5 days after adding ammonia. It did.
 
3. Ammonia dropped by a larger amount than would have without the plants. So the actual drop due to bacteria was not so large and thus .25 ppm of nitrite is about the right amount.
 
4. That mean everything was going just fine.
 
5. My earlier advice, if followed, wont do any harm, just be extra work. Ch4rlie- If you have not followed it yet, do not bother. It isn't needed. if you have, its fine also.
 
Fishless cycles with plants beyond only a couple, proceed differently, the more plants one adds, the more differently they go. However, they are different in a good way in that they are faster.
 
Ch4rlie from here, whichever course you followed, this is a good way to proceed. You can test to monitor ammonia daily. You should check nitrite when you see ammonia drop. When you are testing 0 ammonia and less than .5 ppm of nitrite, add 3/4 of the ammonia dose you did initially, test in 24 hrs you should be 0/0 and good to go. If not, when the numbers again are 0/>.50, try again with the 3/4 dose. You should get to 0/0 w/i 24 hrs pretty soon.
 
Thanks for that. That does make perfect sense.
 
See, simple answers are good!!
 
Ok, what I will do is to leave things as they are and see how it goes. But will post the next results of tests.
 
Then we will take things from there.
 
Much appreciated, thanks
 

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