'cycle' Treatment...cheaper Version, Is It The Same?

sammy86

Fish Crazy
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
283
Reaction score
0
Location
Ipswich, Uk
Hello there!
i was in WILKINSONS yesturday and i saw a 'water treatment' for aquariums - i read the back and it says it elimiates/reduces nitrite and ammonia (thats from memory it could have said slightly diff)

anyway, i was wondering, is this the same as NUTRAFIN CYCLE? which i currently have a small bottle of, and am soon to run out.

Do you know if the Wilkinsons brand is any good, or shall i avoid cheaper treatments and stick with cycle.

thanks!
 
Hello there!
i was in WILKINSONS yesturday and i saw a 'water treatment' for aquariums - i read the back and it says it elimiates/reduces nitrite and ammonia (thats from memory it could have said slightly diff)

anyway, i was wondering, is this the same as NUTRAFIN CYCLE? which i currently have a small bottle of, and am soon to run out.

Do you know if the Wilkinsons brand is any good, or shall i avoid cheaper treatments and stick with cycle.

thanks!

Just stick to the nutrafin one. :)
 
The only one I know that works is the BioSPira. It's about $10 for a small pack though. It's kept refrigerated so the bacteria in it stay alive. The other stay may help a little, I've never tried it.
Sorry if this wasn't much help!

Yeah youre right this is the only good one for cycling is kept refrigerated.
 
Hello there!
i was in WILKINSONS yesturday and i saw a 'water treatment' for aquariums - i read the back and it says it elimiates/reduces nitrite and ammonia (thats from memory it could have said slightly diff)

anyway, i was wondering, is this the same as NUTRAFIN CYCLE? which i currently have a small bottle of, and am soon to run out.

Do you know if the Wilkinsons brand is any good, or shall i avoid cheaper treatments and stick with cycle.

thanks!

As far as I am aware Cycle doesn't work either. The only thing that will eliminate ammonia and nitrites are live bacteria. Those can be bought (Bio-Spira or Bactinette) but will only be alive if the product has been kept refrigerated at all times. If not, the only other alternative is to take the time to let the tank cycle.
 
due to uk laws, ie the advertiseing regulatory body you cannot advertise something that does not do what you are saying it does if you do you have to remove the said item from sale /pay a fine/and re-word your advertiseing to say what it realy does
i.e organic vegetables for instance it is a criminal offence to state organicly grown when they are not you have to remove the word organic and are liable to prosecution for saying so in the first place
therefore if this is the case then why are nutrafin an aquatics product developer/ manufacturer
allowed to do this ?
could it be they have special powers of immunity against such prosecution for false advertiseing or possibly that it does do exactly what it says on the tin and that some members who post such material as to suggest that this doesnt work realy dont know what they are going on about ?
 
I think the advertising standards are a bit of a fuzzy area... Its possible there are also chemcical treatments against ammonia and nitrite in the bottles, but without going in minute detail into the biology and ingredients, it's hard to tell exactly what's in it. But even if it does work, a bottle is riduculously expensive, and still takes a long time, whereas a bottle of ammonia that will last you for years and years costs less than £3 and the tank will still cycle in a few weeks anyway.
 
due to uk laws, ie the advertiseing regulatory body you cannot advertise something that does not do what you are saying it does if you do you have to remove the said item from sale /pay a fine/and re-word your advertiseing to say what it realy does
i.e organic vegetables for instance it is a criminal offence to state organicly grown when they are not you have to remove the word organic and are liable to prosecution for saying so in the first place
therefore if this is the case then why are nutrafin an aquatics product developer/ manufacturer
allowed to do this ?
could it be they have special powers of immunity against such prosecution for false advertiseing or possibly that it does do exactly what it says on the tin and that some members who post such material as to suggest that this doesnt work realy dont know what they are going on about ?
The problem is identifying exactly what it is claiming. It claims to reduce the toxicity of nitrogenous waste through bacteria, it probably does it short term through chemicals and as such can get away with it, and is almost certainly well worded so that it can defend its claim to a point.

Those that post it does not work are based on a number of people trying it and finding it is useless, it scientifically cannot contain the bacteria without a source of food. That source of food would be used up within days, weeks at most, without some way of inhibiting the growth of the bacteria (such as refridgeration).

However, until someone complains, nothing will be done.

The first reason it is likely to be false is because the FW and SW bacteria are different species requiring different conditions, yet it claims to be perfect for both. Unless it someohow seperates the water inside yto have half at an SG of 1 and half at an SG of 1.025 then I wonder just how it manages to keep both alive in the same tube without a food supply.

I can find no actual tests done which show any effectiveness of this product, and as Feesh said, the adhoc amateur tests done show it has a very similar rate to fishless cycling.
 
every cycle is different due to different contributiing factors.
what works for one cant be guaranteed to work for another and all i have seen recently due to being a new member is comments not facts
i have yet to read complaints they might be here but it is a big site with a lot of posts
so i hope fellow fish keepers will try these products and keep a diary as to what happens
the more that do the better understanding we will all have of these products and might not be tempted to dismiss claims of some manufacturers.
we need to remind ourselves that some fellow fishkeepers do take what they read as the total truth and might only access the site a few times to find what they want and then never visit againleaving with information that might not be what it seems.
 
I like the fact you have cleverly side stepped the whole fact that for cycle to work on sea and fresh water it has to completely change the entire understanding of bio-chemistry as the industy knows it...
 
It would be very difficult to 'prove' that Cycle and suchlike work without harming any fish. Therefore, you'd have to simulate fish waste with household ammonia, which IMO would render it an unfair test as you don't know whether the bacteria are coming from Cycle or are being stimulated by the ammonia in the normal fishless cycle way. Adding onto that, even if Cycle does work, it is still a cycle with fish, even if it is slightly speeded up, which is not good or beneficial or whatever. With no food source, there ain't gonna be no bacteria.

I have wondered though, if you took a sterile petri dish with agar mixed with ammonia (as I'd imagine normal nutrient agar wouldn't work as a food source) and took a swab of Cycle, what would happen?


A few quotes from the Hagen website say that

a) There is no food source in the bottle

Why is there ammonia / nitrite in Cycle?


It is entirely normal to measure a low level of ammonia and nitrite in the Cycle product itself, right out of the bottle. These compounds are left over from the fermentation process. Once Cycle is properly dosed, the concentration of these compounds is so minimal and diluted in the aquarium that they cannot be measured after a standard dosage.

IMO, that says that if that 'low level' is not being eaten by the bacteria, they aren't doing their job...

b )
How do Nitrifyers in Cycle stay alive into the bottle?


In normal conditions, nitrifyers live, divide and die within a polysaccharide polymer referred to as biofilm. In our Cycle bottle, the biofilm is so important that it can be seen in the form of "flocs". When the nutrients to carry on normal living processes become too scarce, the colonies in the floc decrease their metabolical activity and become dormant.

Some bacteria, and other unicellular organisms, develop a resistance form such as spores or cysts to withstand environmental variations. This is why species like Bacillus can live hundreds of years sporulated until favorable conditions comes back. This dormancy is expressed to some degree in all bacteria in the environment (excluding some pathogenic strains which are obligatory parasite and other very specialized organisms).

What is found in Cycle is not vegetative and active bacteria, growing and thriving, but rather in a dormant form. They will begin to divide once more when nitrogen, ammonia or nitrite, become present in sufficient concentrations to encourage normal life. Dormancy cannot be compared to an egg, with a set incubation rate and time to hatch. They are more like weed seeds, they simply wait until favorable conditions are present to start growing. During the dormancy period, metabolic activity is either very low or absent. Once back into favorable conditions the bacteria, depending on their species, will initiate vegetative growth and metabolic activity in a matter of hours or up to a day (referred as Lag time).

This is quite interesting. Surely, if there is a 'low level' of ammonia/nitrite in the bottle, that would be enough to re awaken the bacteria? And if they could take effect in any time from a few hours to days (most likely being in the latter time period), by then the fish waste would have been enough to stimulate at least some bacteria to grow. But what I think seems a load of bumph is 'When the nutrients to carry on normal living processes become too scarce, the colonies in the floc decrease their metabolical activity and become dormant.'. So that's pretty much saying, keep a tank with messy fish like oscars, have a thriving bacterial community, then take out the fish for a few months, don't worry,t he bacteria are still there, but dormant, and will 'wake up' when you put the fish back in.

I could throw Hagen further than I can trust them, they have some absolutely appaling info on their site (eg, feeder goldfish are a complete diet for predators such as oscars), and I have some rather interesting emails showing them wriggling their way out of some tricky questions I put to them.
 
From my understainding of nitrosomonas bacteria, they can enter a dormant stage, though this is in a high food supply area (treating waste water) where there is a highly aerobic zone which graduates into an anoxic and then anaerobic zone.

As the oxygen level decreases the nitrosomonas can become dormant, and then reawaken as the denitrifying bacteria create more oxygen.

This happens as oxygen decreases, but not the food levels.

The information on studies of two particular bacteria (Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi) appears to show that even when performed under perfect conditions one will see a spike of nitrite as the nutrient starved (though not living in a bottle, just a very low level of food) as the N. europaea (ammonia to nitrite) bacteria recovers quicker than N. winogradsky (nitrite to nitrate) once a supply of ammonia is evident.

Furthermore, the velocity of resucitation decreased as the time starved increased. Sadly no exact timescales are detailed, though I have doubt any actual benefit would be found in the time taken between the production and use of cycle.

Would be interesting to see the length of time they give between produyction and best before.

The pages I obtained most information are here:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7005068.html

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/6/2471
 
oooe ..i seemed to have started a debate lol
all the info is way over my head 0_0

the bottle of cycle says 'weekly maitenance' do i not put it in then if it is not working?
 
The only one I know that works is the BioSPira. It's about $10 for a small pack though. It's kept refrigerated so the bacteria in it stay alive. The other stay may help a little, I've never tried it.
Sorry if this wasn't much help!
More like $8.99 lol but either way, if you plan on using sotre bought bacteria to cycle your tank Bio-Spria is the only one that has a reputation for success. I have cylce and it keeps my water from clouding up (maybe thats all in my head) but the ammonia levels are unaffected so i would go with others when saying that cycle isnt worth buying. Sure its bacteria but the bacteria is mostly dead or will die within a couple of hours.... Like i said, not worth buying

I also read some article from marineland labs.com that said that recent research showed that the bacteria thought to be found in natural underwater habitats (which is nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas) was not the bacteria that was responsible for the oxidation of ammonia. Tests showed that Nitrospira was the bacteria responsible for this.....
Check out the link:
http://www.marineland.com/science/biospira...Nitrobacter.asp
Browse all the material its good stuff

oooe ..i seemed to have started a debate lol
all the info is way over my head 0_0

the bottle of cycle says 'weekly maitenance' do i not put it in then if it is not working?
If you have it, its worth putting in....it would produce more good than bad (not that much good might i add, but better than nothing)
 

Most reactions

Back
Top