Copper Residue On Plants Killed Shrimp

[littlest]

I got some new plants from Greenline yesterday. They had a warning that copper-based chemicals are used to kill snails and these could be harmful to shrimp.
I wasn't too concerned though as I've had plants from there (with the same warning) and it's not affected my shrimps at all.

So I rinsed the plants and disinfected them in the same way as before.. but this morning both my amano shrimp were dead. Did I not rinse it enough? In future, when I have new shrimp, should I keep new plants in a holding tank for a while (if so, how long for and should I do regular water changes to remove any copper present?)

I'm really gutted my shrimp died as I really like them and I feel awful that I basically poisoned them.

I'm assuming it was the copper because the fish in the same tank seem absolutely fine.

this is what I did with the new plants:

De-bagged them, trimmed dead roots, remove dead/damaged leaves

Placed them in a bucket of dechlorinated water (where they stayed for about 30 mins while I did other stuff).

Placed them in a 1:19 bleach dip for 2 minutes

Placed them back in the bucket of dechlorinated water (it over-dechlorinated by 3-5 times) Gave them a good swirl around. Left for about 30 minutes

Rinsed plants under tap water for about 5 minutes

Placed in fresh bucket of over-dechlorinated water. Swirled them around. Left for about 30 minutes

Planted them.

so... not enough rinsing? What should I do in future to avoid copper contamination.

Like I said I assume it was copper as the tank stats were 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and the fish all seem well. If there was bleach residue I would have thought it would have harmed the fish too.

thanks

 

[Shrimper]

What you did with your plants sounds similar to what I do with mine, although I don't bother with the bleach. I tend to soak mine for about 2 hours in total, changing the water 2/3 times before running them under a tap for about 1 min then adding them to the tank. I have only had problems when I didn't soak them. Although judging from the number of snails i've got now they weren't treated with anything that worked anyway.

I guess Greenline must be using something pretty strong for it to kill your Amanos after all the soaking you did. Mine survived the minor poisoning I gave them once. I would probably consider soaking them over night next time just in case.

 

[Colin_T]

I doubt that copper would have caused the deaths. If there was a blue residue on the leaves then maybe but it is highly unlikely there would have been any copper on the plants after that sort of washing. You might have had some bleach residue on your hands (depending on if you wore gloves) and this got into the tank, however it's pretty unlikely. Alternatively there was some sort of chemical residue in the buckets that got onto the plants and then was transferred into the tank.

 

[littlest]

I suppose the reason I suspected the copper is that the fish are fine but both shrimp (there were only 2 in the tank) were dead.

If there was bleach residue I would have thought the fish would have been affected too. I suppose its possible that shrimp are more susceptible ? (I haven't got a clue)

One bucket was new (just rinsed with water), the other had long-been used for fish-keeping (never anything else).

It just seems a bit of coincidence that both were dead (having shown no signs of illness previously) the day after adding plants when the fish were fine.

 

[Colin_T]

it's a bit of a tricky one. On one hand you did wash the plants pretty well, but on the other the plants had been treated with copper and the shrimp died. You could always test the tank water for copper and see if there is any reading.
Did you do anything else to the tank on the day you added plants, ie: water change, clean filter?

 

[littlest]

Can you get test kits for copper? Didn't know that.

I did a water change on the day I added the plants. About one third. Planting wasn't too easy (I'm not very experienced) so it did take quite some time with me with my hands in the tank and the planting probably stirred up the gravel a bit.
It must have been a rather dramatic day for my fish and shrimp really. The tank was bare for a while too which freaked them out quite a bit as they're not used to it.

oh.. I did add some mopani wood... could that be a factor at all? I had soaked it in dechlorinated water beforehand.

I didn't clean the filter at all, and I tested the tank this morning and it was ammonia 0, nitrite 0.

I think next time I add plants to a tank with shrimp I will definately soak them for longer like Shrimper said. I was just too impatient yesterday (I took a day off work to plant my tank - how sad is that?)

 

[Shrimper]

The wood may of made a difference... I would check the pH of the water to see if it is any different to normal. Wood can leak tannin into the water which can lower the pH although you would probably of noticed the water changing colour if it had done this.

You can get Copper test kits from some LFS but I have never bothered. Apparently they aren't very accurate and the amount of copper required to be lethal to a shrimp is generally lower than the amounts detected by home kits.

 

[Colin_T]

Yep copper test kits are available from most petshops. They might have to order you one in but they should be able to get them. Just check the expiry date on any test kits you buy. Some of the more unusual kits might sit around for a while before they get sold and could have past their use by date.

I would say it was either the wood or the water change that killed the shrimp. Depending on how long the wood was soaked for and whether or not the water was changed a few times while it was soaking. If the water was changed several times while the wood soaked then it should have been fine. Leaving us with the partial water change. Did the water get run straight into the tank or was it put into a bucket and have dechlorinator added before it went into the tank. It might have been copper from the water pipes instead fo copper from the plants.

 

[Slyspy]

I recently replanted my tank and shortly afterwards all my amano shrimp died. I suspected poisoning at first. I thought maybe it was the new fertilizer, but the manufacturers were good enough to test a sample for me which gave it the all clear. I doubt it was anything on the plants - the suppliers (not Greenline) didn't believe that anything of the sort had been used plus I too soaked the plants clean. However when I tested the water I found a trace of nitrites, to which shrimp are rather sensitive. I now believe that my replanting of the tank disturbed the debris in the substrate so much that it overloaded the bio-cycle of the tank, leading to a sudden (and brief) rise in toxins and hence the poisoning of the shrimp.

 

[littlest]

The wood wass soaked quite a while back - I didn't use it in the tank I intended to. It was soaked for maybe 2 weeks back then. Water in the bucket changed maybe 5 times.

I then soaked it for 2 days prior to adding to the tank yesterday ( colour didn't change much in the bucket in the past 2 days).

Will definately check pH when I get home. As of this morning there was no discolouration of the water though and my water is pretty hard

I doubt it was the water change as they have that every week and are fine. Water went into a bucket, dechlorinator added. It was then left for a couple of hours while I was planting.

 

[littlest]

Thanks a lot for your thoughts on this issue guys, really appreciate it. I tested my pH and it was 7.6 - same as normal and same as the tap, so I guess that rules out pH drop from the wood killing the shrimp.

So I guess that leaves:

Copper residue on plants (btw Colin T, is there a reason you find this unlikely? experience, science etc? don't mean to question you, just interested to know)

Bleach residue either on plants or on my hands (question remains why this killed the shrimp but not the fish. Don't know if shrimp are more sensitive in that respect?)

Brief ammonia spike from stirring up gravel etc during planting which had gone back to zero by morning (again, why the shrimp and not the fish?)

Other contaminant either on wood or plants

Anyway, I thank you greatly for your thoughts, if I realised this thread was become more widespread in issues I would have posted it elsewhere, but I originally thought it was about plant pre-treatment so it seemed appropriate.

 

[Colin_T]

The main reason I don't think it would be copper residue on the plants was because of the amount of washing and rinsing you did to them before they went into the tank. And if there was copper residue it should have shown up as a fine blue grit like substance on the leaves. Further to that copper dissolves pretty well in water so unless the shop/supplier had just added a huge amount of powdered copper sulphate just before they packed your plants, then there shouldn't have been much on them to start with. You just don't need that much copper to kill snails.
I have treated tanks with copper and then drained & refilled them a couple of times before adding glass shrimp and never had a problem. Obviously some species of shrimp are going to be more intolerant of chemicals so it could still have been that.

Shrimp (and other crustaceans) are more sensitive to chemicals than fish. If there was any bleach residue on the plants or your hands it might have taken them out first and the fish didn't get exposed to as much. But it should have been removed by the dechlorinator that was added to the rinse water.

Possibly an ammonia spike from stirring up the gravel. Ammonia becomes very toxic in alkaline water. At a PH of 7.6 any ammonia would be very toxic and the shrimp would suffer worse than the fish. A possible scenario and the most likely one considering the other options.

 

[SuperColey1]

It's highly unlikely that it was due to copper. After a quick rinse most of this should've come off. even still after being in the tank it would be sol diluted that it would just add a little to the trace copper in the fertilisers.

Bleach or another contaminant is more likely. Shrimp are much more sensitive than fish. The mount of a contaminant needed to kill a shrimp would be a fraction of what is needed to kill a fish therefore while the shrimp were killed the fish may have just been slightly uncomfortable.

I don't bleach my plants. They get a quick rinse and then straight in the tank. Never had a problem. If there are snails/eggs on them then they diminish through lack of food. MTS tend to outcompete most pest snails.

Copper kits are inaccurate to the point that I wouldn't even waste the money if I were you. Do a large water change, Put some dechlor in, add carbon to the filter for a day. If you have fish/shrimps struggling after this then you have a problem in the tank!!!.

Andy

 

[Liam]

Copper is my guess, Greenline plants have been reported to kill shrimp before I and a couple of others wrote to greenline about this and they put the warning on the plants a couple of years ago. I had soaked the plants for a day and changed the water lots of times but when I put a clump of moss in the tank I could see the shrimp react badly a few hours later, I removed the moss and did a big water change but lost a few shrimp, dont know if the copper gets into the micro life growing on the plants and the shrimp eat it or what, if I get plants from Greenline I grow them on in a non shrimp tank and take cuttings from the new growth now.