Confused?

[SLC Flyfishing]

Why is it that the personal announcements forum suggestion was blown off without hesitation while the science/in depth forum seems to be all but ready for launch? I see jsut as much (if not more) potential for conflict with the science forum in its current form/rules, which was the exact reason given for not allowing a personal announcements section.

I could be wrong (I don't think so though) but it seems like a conflict of interest because some of the mods are very excited about participating in the science/in depth forum, is that why it has had basically no trouble getting through?

I think that there are more on here who would participate in a general announcements forum than would be able to participate meaningfully in the science forum with the ules that have been suggested! Seems like a clique waiting to happen that will alienate a large part of our membership!

That being said, I would enjoy the science forum so am excited to see it happen, but I also have enjoyed reading about peoples achievements and announcements (at least till they are deleted) so am dissapointed to see this not come to fruition.

I think it's only fair to give both equal consideration!

SLC

 

[OohFeeshy]

Why is it that the personal announcements forum suggestion was blown off without hesitation while the science/in depth forum seems to be all but ready for launch? I see jsut as much (if not more) potential for conflict with the science forum in its current form/rules, which was the exact reason given for not allowing a personal announcements section.

I could be wrong (I don't think so though) but it seems like a conflict of interest because some of the mods are very excited about participating in the science/in depth forum, is that why it has had basically no trouble getting through?

Because there's a very large difference. The Science forum is fish realted, the other... isn't. The issues have been discussed enough- we don't need an 'announcement' section, there's plenty of other ways to get your announcement to the masses if you so wish- sig, custom title, Chat....

I think that there are more on here who would participate in a general announcements forum than would be able to participate meaningfully in the science forum with the ules that have been suggested! Seems like a clique waiting to happen that will alienate a large part of our membership!

That being said, I would enjoy the science forum so am excited to see it happen, but I also have enjoyed reading about peoples achievements and announcements (at least till they are deleted) so am dissapointed to see this not come to fruition.

Then get a better network of friends to PM you, or simply remind everyone that the forum's got a general area, and it's called Chat.

 

[geo7x]

well im not william nor am i a mod. However, i think that the reason the science forum was allowed to pass is because of the fact that its science. In the science forum nothing that is argueable would be able to be said without evidence and one way or another, out of two sides of a debate, ones got to lose out pretty quickly, due to lack of evidence etc.

The way i see it, it would be pretty hard to keep up an argument for long on science. Firstly, as I said, youve got to have evidence, without evidence, then youve got nothing to argue for. Secondly, in the science forum it isnt exactly going to get personal is it, even if you have two sides of an argument, both with very sound evidence, its not going to be a personal matter, i dont really see howw serious flaming can go on, and its got to end somewhere anyway, if not, then an argument isnt going to get you anywhere, and people will realise this, and will have to wait for further evidence.

PLUS its on topic as feeshy said.

a general announcements forum, well, the main argument, was "where is the line" this isnt really an issue with the science forum.
Additionally, what is the definition of "announcment"? To me, any general chat topic could be easily formatted into an announcement, any current affairs of the news could be an announcement. To me, it would just become general chat all over again, and if we had strict rules then people would be all angry about it and there would be loads of threads asking if we can have ..... in the announcment forum etc etc.

Also it could get personal, all things could come into it, religion, morals, politics etc. Unlike science, an argument about religion would go on and on forever, a stupid argument on a forum isnt going to make someone turn round and say "you know what, youre right, im going to give up my faith" is it? So where would it stop?? This is not science, this is opinion, arguments involving personal opinion (yes opinion does come into science but nothing to argue about, its not exactly going to get into a personal argument if someone says "in my opinion, dechlorinator works instantly") could go on forever, and people can be very stubborn, and evidence and fact wouldnt come into it at all.

Seems like a clique waiting to happen that will alienate a large part of our membership!

I dont understand why people think that it would be a good thing, this is a fish forum, yes it may get more activity, but why do i care when its in a general chat section (or as good as general chat) I couldnt give a toss that it gets lots of traffic or whatever on the forum, id rather speak to a load of people who are actually here to talk about fish, than a load more people who couldnt care less and just want to chat or "announce" things.
I would certainly rather speak to people about aquatic science.

 

[CFC]

An announcements forum is just an invitation for people to post stuff that the majority just wont find as importent as they do.

For instance...... "my baby took its first step" whoopee doo, we all took our first step once, it doesnt need announcing to the world.

Its a shame because we do have some members that have some great acheivements that do deserve acknowledgement ( I believe you yourself recently passed some medical exams SLC) but it is too much of a line to draw on what is an announcable acheivement and what isnt.

The scientific forum is there to discuss the scientific side of the hobby, the why's behind how something works.
While its not a forum i can see myself visiting (i dont feel the need to know why something is working, as long as it works im happy with it) i can see that it could be a valuable resource for those who do feel the need to know the science behind everything.

 

[SLC Flyfishing]

Then get a better network of friends to PM you, or simply remind everyone that the forum's got a general area, and it's called Chat.

I think you may be mistaken in reading into my post that I want more friends! I'm simply stating that I think it will likely happen that members will be shunned from participating in the science forum if other members don't think they are as smart as themselves, nice try though!

SLC

 

[SLC Flyfishing]

The way i see it, it would be pretty hard to keep up an argument for long on science. Firstly, as I said, youve got to have evidence, without evidence, then youve got nothing to argue for. Secondly, in the science forum it isnt exactly going to get personal is it, even if you have two sides of an argument, both with very sound evidence, its not going to be a personal matter, i dont really see howw serious flaming can go on, and its got to end somewhere anyway, if not, then an argument isnt going to get you anywhere, and people will realise this, and will have to wait for further evidence.

PLUS its on topic as feeshy said.

a general announcements forum, well, the main argument, was "where is the line" this isnt really an issue with the science forum.
Additionally, what is the definition of "announcment"? To me, any general chat topic could be easily formatted into an announcement, any current affairs of the news could be an announcement. To me, it would just become general chat all over again, and if we had strict rules then people would be all angry about it and there would be loads of threads asking if we can have ..... in the announcment forum etc etc.

Also it could get personal, all things could come into it, religion, morals, politics etc. Unlike science, an argument about religion would go on and on forever, a stupid argument on a forum isnt going to make someone turn round and say "you know what, youre right, im going to give up my faith" is it? So where would it stop?? This is not science, this is opinion, arguments involving personal opinion (yes opinion does come into science but nothing to argue about, its not exactly going to get into a personal argument if someone says "in my opinion, dechlorinator works instantly") could go on forever, and people can be very stubborn, and evidence and fact wouldnt come into it at all.

Seems like a clique waiting to happen that will alienate a large part of our membership!

I dont understand why people think that it would be a good thing, this is a fish forum, yes it may get more activity, but why do i care when its in a general chat section (or as good as general chat) I couldnt give a toss that it gets lots of traffic or whatever on the forum, id rather speak to a load of people who are actually here to talk about fish, than a load more people who couldnt care less and just want to chat or "announce" things.
I would certainly rather speak to people about aquatic science.

Well you are forgetting that anyone can argue about anything, even on the science forum and even on the science forum without evidence. Having rules like this won't keep anyone from posting anything they wish there, then folowing it up with fighting when others dissagree with them. Yes it may be true that if everyone understands the idea behind the forum, but that simply won't happen no matter how many rules are made about it.

And if you want to use the rules argument then we could always make a rule in a general announcements section on what types of announcements are appropriate! I.E. no religion politics moral viewpoints etc. It'll have just as strong an effect as the rules in the new science forum.

I'll state again, I'm a huge fan of the science forum. I don't want anyne to misread my arguments conceri=ning this issue as being against the forum; however I do enjoy reading some of the posts about other peoples achievements. I don't have anything personally interesting enough to post, but enjoy reading about others thouroghly.

I'll say it again, conflict of interest. No insult intended but that's jsut how I'm calling this one.

SLC

 

[geo7x]

Well you are forgetting that anyone can argue about anything, even on the science forum and even on the science forum without evidence. Having rules like this won't keep anyone from posting anything they wish there, then folowing it up with fighting when others dissagree with them. Yes it may be true that if everyone understands the idea behind the forum, but that simply won't happen no matter how many rules are made about it.

And if you want to use the rules argument then we could always make a rule in a general announcements section on what types of announcements are appropriate! I.E. no religion politics moral viewpoints etc. It'll have just as strong an effect as the rules in the new science forum.

I'll state again, I'm a huge fan of the science forum. I don't want anyne to misread my arguments conceri=ning this issue as being against the forum; however I do enjoy reading some of the posts about other peoples achievements. I don't have anything personally interesting enough to post, but enjoy reading about others thouroghly.

I'll say it again, conflict of interest. No insult intended but that's jsut how I'm calling this one.

SLC

Well if people argue on the science forum without evidence then they arent going to last very well. The people who actually would use the forum properly (i.e. have evidence) would just prove them wrong and theyve got nothing to go by.

As cfc said, it is too much of a line to draw on what is an announcable achievement and what isnt, we simply cant say "no religious announcements" as that could offend a lot of people.

Can i honestly ask what you mean by conflict of interest? Surely the facts that have been raised over the last few posts combined with the amount of members/ mods who are against the idea is a reason not to have an announcements section?

 

[SLC Flyfishing]

Yes members without evidence would have nothing to go by, but that hasn't stopped people from arguing in the past, that is my entire point. people will still get on there and raise hell and fight because noone agrees with them. It's nothing against the idea of the forum just that it will have just as many problems as any other forum would!

By conflict of interest I mean that one of the biggest proponents of this forum is steelhealr, I have huge amounts of respect for him. I hope to go into the same carreer field as he is in and because of this I understand his desire to have a science forum with peer reviewed literature being discussed. I would love to participate in the same thing myself, but I mean no disrespect when I ask: Could the reason that the science forum is going forward with so lttle trouble be because of steelhealrs enthusiasm? None of the Mods want to moderate a general announcement forum, so it is simply out of the question?

I have personally only seen a very few members participating in the discussion on getting the science forum going (myself being one of them), and many who continually ask for a general forum. why are the few science forum proponents being heard loud and clear?

SLC

 

[geo7x]

Of course, there would be the odd squabble, but i do not think it would raise as many arguments as other forums, due to the science and evidence bit. However, im not saying that arguments wouldnt happen at all, just not enough to make it a bad idea.

Plus, a science forum has never been tried before, why knock it down before we even know how it will go?

If its true that no mods want to moderate an announcements forum, then there is probably a reason for it. the mods probably have a sense for the consequences of such a forum more than anybody else would, and they wouldnt be in favour of moderating a forum that they know will end in tears.

Yes, alot of people didnt participate in the thread on the science forum, but remember every forum has its own group of people who would be interested in such a subject, we all have different interests, and its good to give a variety so everyone has a forum they like. Not everyone posts in every forum, but thats not the point really. Plus it has room for improvement, it hasnt even been made yet, it wont be the most active forum to start with, but it could grow, and if it doesnt it doesnt. The main thing is that AFAIK no one was actually against the science forum, no one felt that any offence could come from it. On the other hand, alot of people were against having an announcements forum, and felt that offence could come from it.

 

[steelhealr]

HI...I hope I can keep this short and to the topic. As Columbo said, just the facts:

1) The science forum idea was developed BY MEMBERS HERE...not by moderators.

2) Good moderators and administrators try to listen and to improve the forum for the members WITHIN THE GUIDELINES of the website itself

3) All suggestions for new forums or improvements, if placed in the Suggestions area, are perused by mods and admin. Suggestions that are either fish-related or possible good hobby additions are frequently discussed among the mods in the mod section.....NOT BY ONE MOD. Eg, the science section thread, which is visible to members and SLC Flyfishing, has been responded to mostly by me. What you CAN"T SEE is that this suggestion has been in the mod section since inception and replied to my multiple mods. I HAPPENED TO VOLUNTEER FOR IT...but the approval has come from many. There isn't even a guarantee the William will select me to mod it.

4) No General Chat. Chances for having anything similar will probably not materialize unless you have the power to change admin's mind. Although I am one of only a few who actually support a general chat, majority rules. No one here truly understands the energy and time required to stay on top of 'general chat' threads.

5) I'd rather moderate a fight over whether there are two bacteria or three that cause cycling vs. close a thread that has a fight break out over religion or politics.

JMO.

SH

 

[Danno]

*cough* Banwagon responces.

 

[Darkstar]

No one here truly understands the energy and time required to stay on top of 'general chat' threads

Lol plenty of people understand, it's hardly rocket science....

 

[CFC]

It may not be rocket science but the general chat section needed 24 hour moderating covering all the time zones to prevent what became full scale riots almost every day. The moderators here are chosen because they have good knowledge in their various aspects of the hobby and having them have to act as chat police to keep the board clean, family safe and friendly was taking away the rest of the board.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

think the point your missing a bit is that the science forum is not intended just for general scientific discussions, it's for scientific discussions relating to fishkeeping

the point is the mods are happy to moderate if things kick off about fishkeeping, this is what the board is about and it kicks off occasionally on any board, however it's too onerus for them to moderate on geneal subjects as well as fishkeeping.

the subjects covered in the scientific forum could also come up in tropical chat or other areas of the board as it stands now, the forum is just a way of encouraging these discussions and getting them together in one place.

general chat/announcements is something that is not currently covered on the board

 

[andywg]

Could the reason that the science forum is going forward with so lttle trouble be because of steelhealrs enthusiasm? None of the Mods want to moderate a general announcement forum, so it is simply out of the question?

Not quite. A number of people expressed support for a more science based discussion of the hobby. That is the real reason it has got the go ahead. It is based around the boards raison d'etre. The science forum will discuss aspects of fishkeeping, whereas a general chat or announcements, by their very description will not.

That is the main difference, that and the oppurtunity (throught he science forum) to really make this forum stand out.

I have personally only seen a very few members participating in the discussion on getting the science forum going (myself being one of them), and many who continually ask for a general forum. why are the few science forum proponents being heard loud and clear?

Because there is support for the science forum without opposition. There is opposition to GC, and definite problems (while not necessarily opposition) with where to draw the boundary on what counts as an announcement.

*cough* Banwagon responces.

or maybe even bandwagon, eh?