Compatability With Discus And Water/temp

[bsilverfox]

Hi All!!  I have a 90 gal FW tank with 6 Discus. Two 3" and Four 4 ".  Water Temp 85* PH 7.6
Would like to add a few other fish. Preferably several small Corys to scarf the bottom and some schooling tetra and/or cardinal Neons.
 
Which Tetras - if any - will be able to handle the PH and Temp?
Will Cardinal Neons be able to survive these parameters?
 
Thanks for any help!!

 

[fluttermoth]

Cardinals and lemon tetras are the most commonly kept tetras that can deal with the high temperature. Glowlights and rummy noses are also possibilities.
 
Sterbai corydoras are really the only cory which will thrive at discus temps; blue rams should also do well though.

 

[TrickySpot]

I am an avid Discus keeper and have perhaps a very closed mind view of whats best for them!
 
You have the right temperature, they like 28 degrees C+, 82.4 F+, BUT, they are crap machines and need perfectly clean water to thrive, i.e. 50% changes every 2 days. I had a special tank built with no substrate and a double bottom, the top layer full of holes that sucks their waste through to the filter and a drip feed water change system. Mine seem perfectly happy, though I'm trying to figure out how to get them into a planted tank with same 'under gravel' filtration system.
 
Any fish thats big enough to handle the temp, is big enough to not be eaten, and not aggressive to annoy your discus will be good. Small tetras might work, though I think my discus would eat them, or the rays definitely will....corys are a good choice, they get quite big and are fast swimmers, so can escape attacks....I agree with fluttermoth on that!
 
Cardinals are difficult to keep and may peck on your discus, I personally wouldn't mix them....My Humble Opinion!

 

[bsilverfox]

"The CURRENT Mrs Treguard "   I love it!!!                        Thank you for the ideas! Not familiar with Blue Rams--Will check it out.

 

[bsilverfox]

Hello Martin,  Thank you for your response. I had no idea they produced abnormal amounts of waste. I have had a lot of problems with this new venture---getting the tank cycled, tons of green algae, 3 out of 6 not eating for a prolonged period. One of the 3 non-eaters finally came around and is doing well in that regard. One is eating algae and a Fire Red simply is not eating. Been with me for 4 weeks short of 2 days--I don't know how she is existing. The only problem I have now - outside the non-eating members - is I can't get the nitrate down. I have been doing water changes regularly with no success. I put 2 bags of Purigen in the filter 4 days ago and there is a small improvement--I would estimate from 40-60PPM to about 30. Gonna check it again today. If I can't find a way to get and keep the nitrate under control it's gonna be bye bye Discus. I'll make sure to find them a good home. Thanks again for your response. As I write this I realize I better wait before getting any tank mates and see if I can get the tank stabilized and balanced with one WC a week.
Bill

 

[fluttermoth]

"The CURRENT Mrs Treguard "   I love it!!!

Well, Treguard Dunshelm is from the 12 century; he may well have had wives before me

 

 
 
So, from the ridiculous to the sublime (for a change!); what's the nitrate level of your tap water? How big are the water changes you're doing now? It might not be possible to keep them low enough with one water change a week, tbh

 

[bsilverfox]

My tap water measures 10PPM. When the level gets above 20, I find it hard with the API test kit to derive an accurate reading because the colors from 40PPM up are so similar. The water changes I am doing now are 25%. I am just getting ready to go and do one for the 3rd consecutive day and I'm hoping that between these changes and the addition of Purigen in my Fluval 406 canister filter last Monday I will see a reduction below 30-40. I am wondering--it that doesn't happen if I am going to run into the same problem if I forget keeping Discus and go to some more common species. A fellow member of the forum, Martin, has said Discus are huge "waste" creators. Sometimes when I do the changes, I vacuum while doing them. I don't really see anymore waste than I used to a few years back when I had a 180 tank and stocked it with predominantly clown loaches and bala sharks and some tetras. I never had nitrate problems at that time but I don't think I ever tested tap water as I had no need to so I guess it is possible there is more nitrate in the water than previously.

 

[fluttermoth]

I think you if you up the volume of your water changes, to at least 30% but possibly as big as 50%, depending on how much you'e having to change the water parameters, you'd soon get on top of the problem.
 
Someone on here (can't remember who, sorry!) can do the sums demonstrating that it's far more efficient to do larger water changes than smaller ones.

 

[bsilverfox]

I waited until today to test my water again for nitrates and the reading was about the same. So 3 consecutive days of 25% changes- two weeks in a row and the addition of 2 bags of Purigen (each bag enough to treat 100 gal--I have a 90 gal tank) still hasn't brought the reading down. It hasn't increased and is between 30-and 40PPM.
 
If I were to increase the water changes to say a 35% and a 50% in a 3 or 4 day period and if it should bring the nitrate down to under 30PPM--in your opinion would I have to continue with extra large changes on a several days a week basis? I have watched several interviews on YOU Tube and "experts there (one being Discus Hans) and he and another emphasized that it's easy to keep Discus but you HAVE TO KEEP THE WATER CLEAN. Clean is not the same is clear. My water is very very clear. So what does clean mean? I vacuum the tank with changes after I have used frozen food which does throw off a lot of excess mess no matter how you feed it. I stopped with the frozen food for awhile to eliminate that but it didn't lower the nitrate. When I vacuum I don't get a lot of junk. Are there any other filter media I could try that might be effective in holding down the nitrate? My tank is under stocked and I am afraid to add more fish because of the possibility of increasing an already troublesome nitrate problem. (Approx 22" of fish total at present) Thanks!

 

[TrickySpot]

To have consistently high Nitrates, you must have consistently high level of nitrites going through your filter, so even though your nitrite level might read zero, your filters may be working overtime to get it all converted. I don't know if you have the possibility of thinning the heard temporarily, perhaps your LFS can house two Discus (maybe two that aren't eating) for a while and see if your water nutrients come down to better levels.
 
I think Clean water means 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, reasonable Nitrates.....I presume your nitrite readings are 0? Other than that, ensure good oxygenation and things should sort themselves out. You could also try and get a floating plant that is a Nitrate sponge, not only will it make the tank a bit dimmer, it can help massively with eating away at Nitrates.
 
Not eating can mean not well/not happy.....and even though I despise tanks with no decor or substrate, some fish just seem to prefer it.....also if they are not eating, they ain't making waste..so when they start eating, be prepared
 
I don't think you'll ever get away with one WC a week with Discus, If you are good at DIY and have the space and facilities, a RO machine drip outputting to your tank with your tank's overflow (you may have to build one) taking the excess water down a drain or something, then yes, you can sit back and just relax and enjoy them  

 

[bsilverfox]

Hello, Martin and thank you very much for your time, thoughts and expertise. Brief backround: about 10 yrs ago and for quite a few years prior to that I had a 180 and 55gal set up. Clown Loaches, Bala Sharks and Tetras in the big one and Cichlids in the 55. The reason I gave those tanks up was that the filter maintenance got to be too much and I would almost lose my religion trying to get the siphons restarted. (4 Fluval 404 Cannister Filters)NEVER had a problem with water quality or Nitrates. Ran an ad and sold the fish to a good home and that was it. I missed the hobby for a while now and decided to try again when I discovered Fluval had updated its equipment and now you don't have to break the siphon to service the media-it's a dream compared to the old way.
Now--I am healthy, active, and feel good--but I just turned 80. Getting into R/O water, distilled water, live plants(no experience at all and little interest-they clutter tanks I have seen with them)
3-4 water changes a week including some large ones - just not things I want to sign on to at this stage of my life. A couple or even 3  25% water changes a week--No problem-I can do them in less than a half hour but more than that and/or some larger just not in the cards. So now I am wondering---all this problem with not being able to control Nitrate in a 90 gal tank with only 6 fish :
(one eating algae and the other not eating anything that I can ascertain) Is the Discus waste the primary cause or is it the 10% nitrate in my tap water--or both. I never had a Nitrate problem with either of my other tanks and do not know what the Nitrate level was in the tap water at that time. It is hard for me to imagine that basicalIy 4 four inch healthy Discus are causing this problem. In the past few days it just occurred to me (maybe I am slowing down) one big thing that was different with my previous tanks other than no Discus---BOTH of those tanks were "over" filtered. 3 Cannisters on the 180--each being recommended for up to 100 gal  and one on the 55 gal rated for up to 100 gal. Right now I am using a Cannister rated and recommended for up to 100 gal on my 90 gallon tank.
You observed that maybe my filter is working overtime. I could easily add another filter which would also help with the oxygenation as they ripple the water good from the return across the top of the tank--I also have 2 airstones running. Finally, it seems to me that if I am having this problem with only 4-maybe 4 1/2" Discus and 2--3" who are not eating - adding more fish would compound the problem and make it even harder to keep the Nirtate under control. Suppose I over filter and add another Fluval 406. Once it got cycled--maybe I could seed it from the one that is running--what would be your opinion on the probability that would take care of the problem. I have no problem with the expense or time servicing the filter. Both would be preferable to the other options listed above. It it wouldn't work, the back up plan would be to find a good home for the Discus and pursue other easier to keep species. Thanking you again for your help!
Bill

 

[TrickySpot]

Adding extra filters will never decrease nitrates, just cause fish waste to become nitrates quicker. There are only three routes for high nitrates - water changes, use plants to absorb them or get fish that can withstand high levels. If you can't do it with WC, and plants are out, then probably best to re home the discus....get some ammonia and keep your tank running/cycling with no fish for a while and keep an eye on the nitrates. If they drop then look for other fish that tickle your fancy.
 
If you are not too keen on plants, consider perhaps moss balls...they generally look quite neat and they are easy to remove and wash...I don't think they are the best nitrate absorbers, but every bit helps! I too am like you with filters, I over filter....it makes me feel a bit better knowing my fish are in very clean water.
 
One last thought, can you get non tap water? I left buckets outside when I started in the hobby to get clean water......that was feasible with a small tank, but I don't know if you perhaps have a rainwater vat, or if you even get much rain!
 
Generally it sounds like you'll get more pleasure from easier fish though

 

[bsilverfox]

Well, I'm not gonna give up just yet but it is driving me nuts how a tank with only 25" of fish (6) in a 90 gallon aquarium with no Ammonia, No Nitrites, No overfeeding, well vacuumed and rid of detritus, regular water changes, Weekly Tetra Balance Plus Treatments, and 2 bags of Purigen in the Fluval Canister filter, can be giving me such headaches trying to get the Nitrates under 40PPM. I did a first (for me) today--a 50% water change. I also added another air stone so I have 3 and with the filter water return and 3 stones there is plenty movement of the water at the top of the tank.

 

[bsilverfox]

You were right! Going from a 25% to a 50% Water Change "moved the stick". Not a lot but to around 30PPM which I have not seen for quite a while. I plan to do another tomorrow or Saturday @ 50% and see what happens. In the meantime I plan also to begin trying a product called Microbe Lift Special Blend which purports to: * Dramatically reduce need for waterchanges * Degrades Organic Waste * is Chemical Free  and also claims to biologically reduce Nitrates. www.MicrobeLift.com I am going to discontinue weekly use of Tetra Easy Balance Plus which does not seem to be helping at all with the Nitrates. Finally, I added another 3-31/2"  Discus who has adapted well so far. Curious to see how 1 fish impacts the bio load and readings.
 
Finally--have you (or anyone keeping Discus who may be reading this) ever tried any Lemon or Rummy nose or other Tetras or Serbai or other smaller Corys with your Discus? I'm concerned about the fact that these fish are normally not found in Aquarium stores at a temp higher than 79 or 80* and my tank is at 85-86 * and I'm wondering if this kind of difference will have an adverse effect on them.
Thanks!
 
Bill