Comet Goldfish Resting On Gravel, Red Patch On Belly

[riantgirl]

Size of aquarium/pond - 5 gallon filtered tank
Types of fish - goldfish, 1 common, 1 comet
Number of fish and sizes - 2 - Ebeneezer (common, orange, body 4", with tail 5") and Goatface (comet, white & orange, body 3", with tail 5")
Filtration used and how do you clean it and how often - carbon biofilter, sometimes I rinse it out, usually I change the whole filter
How much in the way of water changes and how often -- up until the last two months I would usually do a 100% water change every few months, replacing with tap water. I just moved into a new house and since moving I've done 50% water changes
Do you dechlorinate - since I've noticed him acting funny, I've used a tap water treater for two 50% water changes
Test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph both from the tap and tank - took tank water to pet store, tested normal. (they didn't give me numbers)
Anything else you need us to know - tank had about 1.5" of gravel (a month and a half ago increased it to 3" of gravel) and usually has a live plant (just got a new one about a month and a half ago). Tank usually has a good amount of algae buildup - or at least it builds up quickly in between cleanings. I used to have an airstone, but the motor burnt out a couple of years ago and I never replaced it.

I have had these goldfish for 9 years with no problems - started them out in a 2.5 gallon while I was at college, and moved them to a 5 gallon 4-5 years later. Since then I've learned that they need more space - but I simply do not have room for the 30+ gallons they're supposed to need. When I first got the goldfish I didn't know they needed that much room, and so now I'm trying to take the best care of them I can with what I have available.

About two weeks ago I noticed that Ebeneezer acting strangely - he was lying on the bottom (still upright, breathing normally, fins didn't seem clamped). It had been a few weeks since I last changed the water, and there was quite a bit of algae buildup on the sides of the tank. When I approached the tank or made movements he would swim around energetically like normal, then would lie down again. I immediately did a 50% water change and cleaned the walls of the tank of algae; when the behavior continued went to the grocery store and came home with a tap water treatment, which I added. He was eating, etc. as normal. I took a water sample in to the pet store the next day and everything tested normal - the associate told me he was probably just getting old. I bought a new airstone and pump, thinking maybe there wasn't enough oxygen in the water, but haven't set it up yet because he seemed to be fine again.

Earlier this week I noticed him on the bottom again (the other fish will sometimes go rest on the bottom alongside him, although it shows no signs of distress or sickness at all.) I did another 50% water change and cleaned off the algae again, and yesterday brought a PRE-water-change sample in to be tested. Levels were normal & healthy. Yesterday I noticed a red patch developing on Ebeneezer's belly - almost like it had been rubbed raw, or he was bleeding under his scales. I wondered if it was from resting on the bottom, although I haven't noticed him doing it too often; normally he's swimming energetically. Today the patch has almost doubled in size. I see no signs of parasites, etc. (Fins are normal, gills look fine.)

Any thoughts or suggestions? Again - I know the tank is too small. I wish I could afford a giant 30-gallon tank (room-wise OR money-wise) but it is not an option. I have a 10-gallon tank that I could set up, but I would need to take the time to cycle it and the associate at the store seemed to think it would put extra stress on the fish to change them now.

Grateful for any input!

*correction: the goldfish that is sick is a common goldfish, not comet. I realized my mistake after looking at the "types of goldfish" pictures pinned at the beginning of this forum.*

Pictures are (from L to R), tank setup; red patch yesterday; red patch today.

 

[fluttermoth]

First of all, please don't take any critical comments personally! A lot of people are misinformed about the needs of goldfish, and I'm sure you want the best for your fish.

It's really hard to pinpoint what is wrong with your fish without having a full set of water parameters. Next time you have your water tested, you must get he shop to write down the actual numbers for you; or even better, get your own set of test kits (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are the vital ones) when you have the money.

Having said that, 99% of health problems in fish comes down to poor water quality.

Stop changing any of the stuff inside your filter. That's were all the good bacteria live, and if you change them, you're just throwing out the bacteria you need to keep the water in good condition. Secondly, you must start using tap safe at every water change. Chlorine is very damaging to the fish's gills.

For the next two or three weeks, change 50% of the water every day. That will allow the good bacteria to build up in the filter, while at the same time keeping the fish safe from build ups of pollutants. After that, you should be able to cut back on the changes a bit, but with big messy fish in small tanks, you really need to be changing 50% of the water at least two or three times a week.

Your fish would be better off in the 10g; tanks don't cycle, nor does water; it's the filter that's important. Cycling just means growing a colony of the good bacteria inside the filter media. If you move the filter you have now to the larger tank, you won't have any additional problems, other than the ones you already have.

It is vital that you move the fish to something larger ASAP; a 30g is certainly not 'giant'; you can pick up second hand tanks very cheaply, and if even that is beyond you, you can keep the fish in a plastic storage box; they don't need to be in a glass tank; that's purely for our convenience in viewing them. I do feel I have to say that you may already have severely shortened your fish's lives by keeping them in such a small tank. These fish should really be around a foot long by that age.

 

[Mothi]

First of all, please don't take any critical comments personally! A lot of people are misinformed about the needs of goldfish, and I'm sure you want the best for your fish.

It's really hard to pinpoint what is wrong with your fish without having a full set of water parameters. Next time you have your water tested, you must get he shop to write down the actual numbers for you; or even better, get your own set of test kits (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are the vital ones) when you have the money.

Having said that, 99% of health problems in fish comes down to poor water quality.

Stop changing any of the stuff inside your filter. That's were all the good bacteria live, and if you change them, you're just throwing out the bacteria you need to keep the water in good condition. Secondly, you must start using tap safe at every water change. Chlorine is very damaging to the fish's gills.

For the next two or three weeks, change 50% of the water every day. That will allow the good bacteria to build up in the filter, while at the same time keeping the fish safe from build ups of pollutants. After that, you should be able to cut back on the changes a bit, but with big messy fish in small tanks, you really need to be changing 50% of the water at least two or three times a week.

Your fish would be better off in the 10g; tanks don't cycle, nor does water; it's the filter that's important. Cycling just means growing a colony of the good bacteria inside the filter media. If you move the filter you have now to the larger tank, you won't have any additional problems, other than the ones you already have.

It is vital that you move the fish to something larger ASAP; a 30g is certainly not 'giant'; you can pick up second hand tanks very cheaply, and if even that is beyond you, you can keep the fish in a plastic storage box; they don't need to be in a glass tank; that's purely for our convenience in viewing them. I do feel I have to say that you may already have severely shortened your fish's lives by keeping them in such a small tank. These fish should really be around a foot long by that age.

+1

Heya Riantgirl and welcome to the forum. I would do exactly what Fluttermoth has suggested, she knows her stuff well. Good luck with your fish and I hope it gets better soon.

Cheers
Mothi

 

[riantgirl]

Thanks for the input fluttermoth & Mothi. Today the red patch on Ebeneezer's belly has faded quite a bit from where it was yesterday, which is good I hope. Yesterday and today he has been swimming around normally as far as I can tell.

There is a 20-gallon tank in the basement of my husband's store that we can probably be able to a place for. You said that it is the bacteria in the filter that is important to cycle; If so, why do they sell filter cartridge replacements (the white spongy sleeve as well as replacement carbon) and tell me to replace them? Is there any situation where I should replace the filter? What's the best way to clean it when it accumulates junk from the tank? (I'm not doubting your advice at all; just confused about the seemingly deceptive marketing, and the conflicting information I've read about tank cycling and moving fish up to a bigger tank.)

I don't know how my goldfish lived through almost 9 years of total water changes using un-treated tap water, completely rinsing the gravel AND changing the filter cartridge each time. Crazy.

Also - if we can get the 20 gallon set up, what is the best way to continue using the beneficial bacteria in the old filter cartridge and build up good bacteria in the new, larger filter? (My current filter is for up to 15 gallons I think.) When I transfer them, will using all of the water, gravel, & plants from the old tank help with that process? Should I wait to see if Neezie's belly thing clears up or transfer them as soon as we can get the tank set up?

As for test kits - the ones they used at the pet store are strips you dip into the water and then compare the color to a chart. Is that the recommended kind, or would you suggest another?

Thank you guys so much for your advice and help!

 

[Mothi]

Thanks for the input fluttermoth & Mothi. Today the red patch on Ebeneezer's belly has faded quite a bit from where it was yesterday, which is good I hope. Yesterday and today he has been swimming around normally as far as I can tell.

There is a 20-gallon tank in the basement of my husband's store that we can probably be able to a place for. You said that it is the bacteria in the filter that is important to cycle; If so, why do they sell filter cartridge replacements (the white spongy sleeve as well as replacement carbon) and tell me to replace them? Is there any situation where I should replace the filter? What's the best way to clean it when it accumulates junk from the tank? (I'm not doubting your advice at all; just confused about the seemingly deceptive marketing, and the conflicting information I've read about tank cycling and moving fish up to a bigger tank.)

I don't know how my goldfish lived through almost 9 years of total water changes using un-treated tap water, completely rinsing the gravel AND changing the filter cartridge each time. Crazy.

Also - if we can get the 20 gallon set up, what is the best way to continue using the beneficial bacteria in the old filter cartridge and build up good bacteria in the new, larger filter? (My current filter is for up to 15 gallons I think.) When I transfer them, will using all of the water, gravel, & plants from the old tank help with that process? Should I wait to see if Neezie's belly thing clears up or transfer them as soon as we can get the tank set up?

As for test kits - the ones they used at the pet store are strips you dip into the water and then compare the color to a chart. Is that the recommended kind, or would you suggest another?

Thank you guys so much for your advice and help!

It's good to hear that the red patch is fading. I recommend you moving gravel, plants, water and filter to the new tank along with the fish. Keep the new and old filters running in the 20 gallon tank at the same time. It would be good for the fish to have both of these filters in the new tank permenantly as goldfish produce a lot of waste and need double the filtration compared to other fish.

Some months ago I did exactly the same for 2 of my orandas and it's worked really well for them. They are now growing like beasts I had them in a 60 litre first and now they are in a 144 litre tank. They have grown from 2.5" to 5" in 6 months.

Cheers
Mothi

 

[fluttermoth]

Thanks for the input fluttermoth & Mothi. Today the red patch on Ebeneezer's belly has faded quite a bit from where it was yesterday, which is good I hope. Yesterday and today he has been swimming around normally as far as I can tell.

Oh, that's good news!

There is a 20-gallon tank in the basement of my husband's store that we can probably be able to a place for.

Excellent; the bigger tank you can find for them the better

You said that it is the bacteria in the filter that is important to cycle; If so, why do they sell filter cartridge replacements (the white spongy sleeve as well as replacement carbon) and tell me to replace them? Is there any situation where I should replace the filter? What's the best way to clean it when it accumulates junk from the tank? (I'm not doubting your advice at all; just confused about the seemingly deceptive marketing, and the conflicting information I've read about tank cycling and moving fish up to a bigger tank.)

The simple reason is that recommending you buy new filter cartridges makes money for the manufacturer; washing them out in old tank water doesn't. The only time you would ever want to change them is if they're so old they start to crumble in your hands. In that situation you'd cut up the filter media and replace a third or a quarter every two or three weeks so the bacteria can colonise the new part before you throw the old bits away. Just swish them about in the old tank water you've removed during your water change. You want to get most of the 'mulm' (the brownish muddy stuff) off, but you don't want to wash them too thoroughly.

I don't know how my goldfish lived through almost 9 years of total water changes using un-treated tap water, completely rinsing the gravel AND changing the filter cartridge each time. Crazy.

Well, goldies are remarkably tough fish! At least you can improve things for them now

Also - if we can get the 20 gallon set up, what is the best way to continue using the beneficial bacteria in the old filter cartridge and build up good bacteria in the new, larger filter? (My current filter is for up to 15 gallons I think.) When I transfer them, will using all of the water, gravel, & plants from the old tank help with that process? Should I wait to see if Neezie's belly thing clears up or transfer them as soon as we can get the tank set up?

You can either, as Mothi says, run both filters, or you can put all the media from your old filter into the new one. I agree that running both filters would be best. Using the decorations from your old tank won't help very much, but it's always worth doing; there will probably be a small amount of bacteria growing on the surfaces. I'd transfer them as soon as you can; it'll be much easier to keep the water quality up in a larger tank, as any toxins will take longer to reach dangerous levels in a higher volume of water.

As for test kits - the ones they used at the pet store are strips you dip into the water and then compare the color to a chart. Is that the recommended kind, or would you suggest another?

The test strips are very inaccurate, and most of them don't test for ammonia, which really is vital. We recommend liquid based, dropper or tablet tests that come with a test tube; the API ones are what most of us use. Ammonia and nitrIte are the important ones; nitrate and pH aren't so vital.

Thank you guys so much for your advice and help!

You're very welcome! Do let us know how Ebeneezer's doing; keep up the water changes and get him into a bigger tank, and I see no reason why he shouldn't make a full recovery.
Oh, and do post some pics of them in their new tank when you get it You'd think we'd have enough looking at out own fish tanks, but we love having a nose at everyone elses