Coffee Table - Tank Uncertainty?

[Tia's Treasure]

Hello to all existing members and a thank you in advance for all your sincere advice and guidance. Just to set the scene, I have a beautifully crafted 2.5ft square coffee table tank, which has water level depth of 1 ft. The tank has a full under-gravel filteration system, two submersible pumps, 4 lights, a heater and themometer.... I hope this paints the picture ; -)

I have had the tank running for over a year now and the initial set of fishes that I put in there a year ago was a batch of Rainbow Plaities. These reproduced and we continue to home the second or third generation siblings! Also our Pleco was purchase around the beginning, when it was a baby (size of my index finger) and today has grown to approx. 6-7 inches long!

Today we currently have the following fishes in the tank:

1 Pleco (1 died in the first week as we bought two together - but have still not found the corpse!!)
3 Cardinal Tetras (4 died within a month of purchase)
Lots of Rainbow Plaities
6 Balloon Mollies (reduced from 11 - again seem to be dying every so often (no trend?!) but I feel its females post birth?)
3 Clown Loaches (lost one last week, one week post purchase??)
3 Orange Mollies
3 Swordfish Mollies

We initally had some lovely real-wood and real plants in the tank but did not work great due to the pleco eating on the wood and polluting the water quickly so now we have a few small real plants and some fake ornaments and plants dotted around.

MY ISSUES ARE:1. Over the year, why would we be loosing fish regularly? Water is taken to local pet store and tested ok. Temp is maintained at 27-28*C
2. Where could the second pleco have disappeared to that even our regular tank cleaner could not find trace of when he first came to clean 3 months ago (6months post the pleco going missing)...?
3. One of my pumps is currently not operating 100% and I have also moved the coffee table tank to centre-room from the corner, where it has lived for the year. Also, I have done a thorough clean of the tank including 50/60% water change (normal water changes I do are 30% average weekly)and removed the last wood log which the pleco hibernated under... SINCE I have noticed the pleco stuck to one wall of the tank but frequently flipping over to the surface and back (looks like its for O2?) Is there a problem/ risk here??
Apologies for a very long narrative, but I appreciate there are a number of factors and variables that you professionals would need to cover, so I have tried to anticipate these above. Should you need further clarity let me know and I look forward to some advice on the 3 issues highlighted above - THANKS!

 

[karin]

Could you have over cleaned? If you scrubbed everything (esp. filters) you could have lost your biological filter and now you may be experiencing a mini cycle. That is, ammonia and nitrites could be building up. How did you do a "thorough" clean? And what is your maintenance routine.
If your pump is not working properly, that means your filter is not working properly. You might want to replace that ASAP
Finally you need to get a good liquid based test kit so you can do your own water management. It is possible that the water is your problem. Most of us here don't trust others to test our water and when you say your water tested "ok" by the pet store we get suspcious. Many stores call water "ok" that many of us would say is a problem. Do you know what "ok" meant? What did they test for?

Just some thoughts.

 

[micko]

Did you cycle your filter before putting fish in?

I would have major issues with your stocking. What sort of plec is it? A common one? Clown loache need to be in groups of 6+ and a tank that size is way too small. They grow huge and have been known to have a lifespan of 15-20 years. Big commitment.

I am not trying to run your tank down but I know these sort of tanks come with many problems. How many times have you dropped a glass/cup on a table. This stresses the fish out. Many people do not put a backround on them and also leaves the fish stresses. There's also a problem with electrical wires in the middle of your floor. Plus I know condensation is also a problem as it rises onto the glass and runs onto the floor.

If I had it then I would have plant only.

 

[karin]

OP said they had the tank for a year so cycling would not be the issue at this time. Although I suspect that something (possibly pleco, possibly cleaning, possibly the malfunctioning pump, possibly some combination) is causing a build up of ammonia and/or nitrite.

 

[nurglespuss]

In refeence to the pleco, they do rpefer wood in their diet, and you end up with a healthier fish as a result, perhaps rehome him?

How often are you adding fish, and how much quantity?

Undergravel filtration is OK, I used it for years, but, external filtration is better, wouled there be any way to add an external filter? This would increase water flow around the tank, and give cleaner clearer water...

 

[Tia's Treasure]

Could you have over cleaned? If you scrubbed everything (esp. filters) you could have lost your biological filter and now you may be experiencing a mini cycle. That is, ammonia and nitrites could be building up. How did you do a "thorough" clean? And what is your maintenance routine.
If your pump is not working properly, that means your filter is not working properly. You might want to replace that ASAP
Finally you need to get a good liquid based test kit so you can do your own water management. It is possible that the water is your problem. Most of us here don't trust others to test our water and when you say your water tested "ok" by the pet store we get suspcious. Many stores call water "ok" that many of us would say is a problem. Do you know what "ok" meant? What did they test for?

Just some thoughts.

Thanks Karin - some good points here! Firstly when I mentioned 'scrubbed everything clean' it really was the surface and exterior - not below the water level! Sorry, I suppose this point was not really relevant to the issue as I suupse there would be no issue with me doing this anyway?! As for our maintenance routine, I do a water change every weekend. Cleaning of the tank takes place every 6 weeks by a specialist from our local Fish shop. The store I took my water to is the same, Shoots in Stanmore who have a huge aquatics shop and specialists who test the water; however I have to be honest I did not ask for specifics once I was told my water was sufficient for the fishes I have. I will go and get a test kit of my own this weekend - for sure!

Thanks for the pointers!

 

[Tia's Treasure]

Did you cycle your filter before putting fish in?

I would have major issues with your stocking. What sort of plec is it? A common one? Clown loache need to be in groups of 6+ and a tank that size is way too small. They grow huge and have been known to have a lifespan of 15-20 years. Big commitment.

I am not trying to run your tank down but I know these sort of tanks come with many problems. How many times have you dropped a glass/cup on a table. This stresses the fish out. Many people do not put a backround on them and also leaves the fish stresses. There's also a problem with electrical wires in the middle of your floor. Plus I know condensation is also a problem as it rises onto the glass and runs onto the floor.

If I had it then I would have plant only.

Hey - thanks! The Pleco is a common one- brown and black sort of thick skin and really ugly to look at ; -) It has certainly grown over the year and please do note that the tank is pretty large therefore a long term commitment should be no issue? As for the Clown Loaches, our Aquatic centre/ fish shop mentioned three at a time, so we purchased three to add to our existing two - who have since passed away. But is three an issue? We initially purchased these on the shopkeepers recommendation as we had issues with snails in the tank (due to the wood I think).

The Tank is otherwise very well put together and professionals who have been called over to check it out have commented on a good build with good working equipment - so this should not be the issue. I agree with Karin that the pump that stopped working two days ago could be a concern hence will tackle it now...

As for the coffee table part of it - we have always kept this in the corner of our living room and never allowed anything to be put on it - defeats the purpose I know!! Now that I have moved the table to the centre, we will ensure the same continues but point taken about the noise and slams ontop- as we do have a 3year old so ...!!!

Thanks.

In refeence to the pleco, they do rpefer wood in their diet, and you end up with a healthier fish as a result, perhaps rehome him?

How often are you adding fish, and how much quantity?

Undergravel filtration is OK, I used it for years, but, external filtration is better, wouled there be any way to add an external filter? This would increase water flow around the tank, and give cleaner clearer water...

Oh really - is it worth putting the log back in do you think?? I do also put in the algae tablets every two days - what else would you recommend???

 

[lilfishie]

when cleaning the exterior, did you use any cleaning products? they could of got into the water and therefore poison your fish

 

[Tia's Treasure]

when cleaning the exterior, did you use any cleaning products? they could of got into the water and therefore poison your fish

Hey - no not at-all, just a cloth and water from the tank!! There was a build up of limescale that may have dropped back into the tank though, but I was not concerned with that as when my tank cleaner was here, he mentioned that this was not an issue - is that true do you know? (not masses in amount though, I am talking small flakes - a few)

This is definitely very worrying as just lost a tiny baby and another small balloon mollie that was bread in my tank and approx. 3 months old

I am looking for a water testing kit online now and FYI - second pump is all working fine now so this should not be a problem moving forward?!

 

[karin]

Hummm... any symptoms at all with the dying dead fish? bloating, flashing (rubbing or itching on sand, rocks, etc), bent spines, scales sticking out? Do fins look good, whole, not torn? Eyes good?

I'm not a molly expert, anyone? Can they kill other fish?

The loss of the cardinals.... well like neons, sometimes they are just weak individuals.

We do need your water stats though, I'm wondering about Ph or hardness that just might be too stressful for some of your fish.

Finally, the pleco is a waste producer and will be loading your system with poo. Could you trade him in for a Bristlenose pleco, that maxes at about 5 inches?
And the clown loaches, while slow growing do get to be a foot long or more and are typically not appropriate for most tanks.

So just some more thoughts.

 

[Tia's Treasure]

Hummm... any symptoms at all with the dying dead fish? bloating, flashing (rubbing or itching on sand, rocks, etc), bent spines, scales sticking out? Do fins look good, whole, not torn? Eyes good?

I'm not a molly expert, anyone? Can they kill other fish?

The loss of the cardinals.... well like neons, sometimes they are just weak individuals.

We do need your water stats though, I'm wondering about Ph or hardness that just might be too stressful for some of your fish.

Finally, the pleco is a waste producer and will be loading your system with poo. Could you trade him in for a Bristlenose pleco, that maxes at about 5 inches?
And the clown loaches, while slow growing do get to be a foot long or more and are typically not appropriate for most tanks.

So just some more thoughts.

Thanks Karin - I think you may have a strong point re. bloating.... I did notice this week that the fishes that died and were removed from the tank all looked rather plump! Feeding could be an issue as both my wife and I feed si need to ensure we both are consistent with amounts and timing... we normally put enough for the fishes to consume all within a minute however when i cleaned the tank this week there was a lot of left over debris! If I suddenly scale the food down could they starve? As for the Fins and eyes, I often admire how healthy and beautiful they look and question their death at this stage- so no issues on this front.

Also re. Pleco and loaches, perhaps a good idea to trade-in; especially the loaches as I do not have snails etc so no 'real' purpose of keeping them I suppose! The fact is I have not had one live that long in my tank so was unaware that they grow so much as the shop keep telling me they will not grow much more than 5/6 inches.

I'm getting the water testing kit this afternoon as online there are so many i was lost last night! Any recommendations?

 

[karin]

The test kit that most people on this site use is called and API Master Test Kit.

I'm not really an expert on fish diseases, but just have dealt with a few and am fastinated by the puzzles they present. So here are some ideas. Bloating can probably have a number of causes. Over feeding could be your problem. I would change up your routine and feed once a day, what fish can eat in a few minutes and then skip one day a week. Don't worry, they won't starve. I have a tank in my office that does not get any food over the weekends. This is a normal practice to skip a day every week as the general feeling is that aquarium fish are overfed. Rotting food can also quickly cause water problems especially in the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate areas.

When you get your test kit, test daily for a couple weeks so you get the hang of it and know your aquarium. After that, if it is stable, you can test every week right before your water change to see what is going on and then after a couple weeks of that, assuming your tank is stable, you can test as needed.

Now bloating as a symptom of disease. The only thing I really found is that it could be a disease called dropsy. Not a easy disease to manage. But according to my sources you could try an anti-bacterial food. They sell these mostly on line. I think Jungle Labs has good quality products. More important is water quality management though. Here are my sources. In the first one look at "Bloating" as a symptom. You will see a general discussion and then following a discussion of dropsy. The second link is another disease link and a bit more graphic so be forewarned. I have no experience with this... well maybe in a neon tetra population, but I did nothing about it and after a year, my neons are down to 5 from 11 (and I'm not interested in replenishing that population anymore). Some of them have bloated, lived for a while then died. There was no infecting of other fish in my case. But neons are so overbred and available I believe (maybe like some of your species) that there are just weak individuals out there.

Good luck
http/thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/what-is-wrong-with-my-fish.html
http/www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/dropsy/

 

[Tia's Treasure]

The water tests are coming up all clear:

Nitrite - NIL
Amonia -NIL
PH level - 7.8

The other questions i have been asked by the store was around white spots and red gills, but again I observe the fishes when I take them out of the tank and have not noticed anything as such...! I suppose this is a very tricky one and likely to be my fate and unwell fishes perhaps - will continue to monitor the overall situation and highlight any further problems.

Thank you all for your advice and especially Karin!