Cichlid With Hith

[mark4785]

NOTE: The information below was originally intended for the UKAPS forum.


During December 2011, I bought a dainty female german blue ram from an aquatic store. Up on getting home with the fish I noticed that it did not have the ability to eat any form of food, possibly because all the other cichlids in the aquatic shop tank were feeding first, thus it had never learned to eat. Secondly, I noticed two small white spots on it's forehead which I diagnosed has being hole in the head syndrome. The fishes head eroded away and it died within a matter of weeks stuck to the powerhead intake grill. The female GBR was replaced and the replacement remains healthy.

A male ram which was in the tank with the female ram remained healthy, up until yesterday when I noticed two small white spots on his head which again is hole in the head syndrome.

It may be important to note that prior to buying the GBR pair, I had a single male GBR in the aquarium who died at the age of 2 years and 6 months from HITH. I believe he caught HITH as a result of low immunity associated with old age.

I'd just like some feedback from the UKAPS with regards to what is causing my GBR's to develop HITH, here are the options that come to mind:

1. HITH is being caused by a vitamin deficiency; a characteristic of a GBR with HITH is that it goes off it's favourite food and starts eating something different. The male GBR currently with HITH refuses to eat flake food and chooses to eat pellet; this has been the case since day 1. The healthy female currently in the tank, however, eats anything that fits in her mouth. So my question is, given that the male is picky, was it developing HITH while in the aquatic store and on day 1 during which it was in my aquarium?

2. High nitrate; my nitrate level is between 40 and 60 ppm as needed to run a relatively high light planted aquarium. My singular male GBR (mentioned above) survived for 1 year and 6 months in this high nitrate environment. In addition, the current female GBR is so at home in these conditions that she is repeatidily depositing eggs!

3. Infection transmission; did the HITH transfer from the unhealthy female Ram or the singular male Ram to my current male GBR?

4. Stressors; the current male GBR repeatidly chases after my corydoras; especially when the female GBR is depositing eggs.


In addition, I'd be appreciative if somebody could recommend a good form of treatment for HITH. I have placed a HITH treatment by Esha in the aquarium and I am currently injecting blood worm with metronidazole and feeding it to the male GBR.

The only thing that is creating a dilemma is whether or not I should drop the nitrate level to 5 ppm, cover the aquarium up and disable the lights for a couple of days and dose the water with a vitamin supplement. Note: the reason for disabling the lights is due to the fact that photosynthesis in the plants won't function very well with very little nitrate as i'm sure UKAPS members already know!


Mark.

 

[mark4785]

Well I've decided to lower nitrate and dose the aquarium with metronidazole as well as mix this medication into some of the fishes food. HITH has halted for now. Has anybody treated this disease? If so, whats the best treatment?

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/330987-healing-the-uarus/page__p__2760936__hl__blockhead__fromsearch__1#entry2760936

 

[mark4785]

My case of HITH is not the same as the case you've linked to in terms of my care regime. My filters aren't dirty, I don't have elusive fish corpses and overall, I do care deeply about all the fish in my tank.

It goes without saying that water quality is excellent in my tank at all times. The fact that water quality is prestine and maintenance is frequently done makes my case of HITH harder to understand. I feel inclined to simply state that the female dwarf cichlid blue ram that I obtained from my LFS recently (which had a case of HITH) simply brought the hexamita parasite into my water column and thats why I'm in the predicament I'm in.

But it's not as simple as that because there are some people (predominately non-planted aquarium folks) who believe that you need a nitrate level of 10 ppm to keep Blue rams healthy; my nitrate level is frequently around 40-50 ppm and the fish will spawn under these conditions. There are multiple other variables like deficiency in vitamin in-take as a cause of hexamita/HITH, but there are those who state that deficient vitamin uptake is an effect rather than a cause of hexamita/HITH.

The understanding that aquarists and even medical professionals have of hexamita is very pour.

 

[Davo86]

octozin is an effective treatment for HITH, but i would assume (but have never seen or used) that the eSha treatment may also be effective if it directly states it is for HITH
You can also crush up childrens vitamin tablets and mix it in with their food

I must say though HITH is predominantly caused by poor water quality or poor diet,

Also stating your water quality is excellent at all times and then saying your nitrate is 50 is totally contradictory

 

[mark4785]

Also stating your water quality is excellent at all times and then saying your nitrate is 50 is totally contradictory

Thanks for your reply, but the statement above which infers 50ppm of nitrate constitutes poor water quality is not supported universally; you'd certaintly get a lot of critical comments from UKAPS as it has been proven by planted aquarists that Discus and cichlids thrive in nitrate levels between 100 and 200ppm.

I always offer high quality food containing vitamins A,C and D to the fish. I offer over 6 different types of flake, some with spirulina, some with garlic and others to support good colouration and growth. I also offer 5 different types of pellet offered by well known manufacturers like Nutrafin and Ocean Nutrition. There is a well balanced diet being offered so diet really is not an issue.

As for water quality, in my opinion, it is excellent as there is 0 ppm of ammonia and nitrite and a reasonable concentration of nitrate needed to grow higher plants and inhibit algal growth.

 

[Davo86]

opinions differ, and it can't hurt to to have it lower or you wouldn't have said it yourself above,
plus planted tank owners will likely be dosing ferts which will contain nitrate, so will give an untrue reading,

Temperature is also a big factor with ramirezi, any lower than 26C and you'll have issues

 

[mark4785]

opinions differ, and it can't hurt to to have it lower or you wouldn't have said it yourself above,
plus planted tank owners will likely be dosing ferts which will contain nitrate, so will give an untrue reading,

Temperature is also a big factor with ramirezi, any lower than 26C and you'll have issues

Thanks for your input. I'd just like to confirm that the temperature is always 27 C or above.

I didn't realise that my nitrate fertiliser actually interfered with my nitrate testing kit. UKAPS members have always said to me that the nitrate fert will interfere with the ammonia test kit; they simply think that the nitrate test kit is unreliable but have never said it was made further unreliable when used to test water with nitrate fert in it.

 

[snazy]

I had hexamita on my guppies and treated at the time with metronidazole, mostly in the food but remember dosing the water too a few times every other day.
I have since heard that mebendazole is better as metronidazole may not completely eradicate the parasite.
Also, hexamita parasite has been found in tanks with healhy fish, suggesting that the tank may have had it for a longer period, but the fish develop the disease when conditions are "right".
Besides what you have already stated, some research suggests that HIHT and the flagellites/hexamita parasite found in the holes in the head maybe a secondary infection as a consequence of some other type of sickness.
Also, it's been suggested that carbon in the filter can deprive the fish from minerals and cause hexamita.
Another thing it that hexamita has can survive in tanks with no fish as long as there is organic matter to feed on.

As for temperature, my rule is increasing temperatures when treating parasites only, but never if suspecting bacterial infection.

 

[Davo86]

I didn't realise that my nitrate fertiliser actually interfered with my nitrate testing kit. UKAPS members have always said to me that the nitrate fert will interfere with the ammonia test kit; they simply think that the nitrate test kit is unreliable but have never said it was made further unreliable when used to test water with nitrate fert in it.

"there is a huge difference between the nitrate that evolves from the organic waste in the tank and the nitrate that you add via dosing. The toxicity of organically derived NO3 (fish waste, food decay, detritus and so forth) is not due to the NO3 itself, it's really due to the process of nitrification and of the toxic compounds that the NO3 starts off as. Decay and waste generate ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4) which is extremely toxic. The bacteris then convert the ammonia to Nitrite (NO2) which is only slightly less toxic than ammonia. In order to accomplish this they use oxygen from the water column, thus stealing it from the fish. Then, other bacteria strip even more oxygen from the water column to generate NO3. NO3 is therefore the smoking gun. The fish are exposed to two counts of toxicity (NH4/NO2) combined with hypoxia to boot. At the end of this toxic cycle people measure NO3 content and get hysterical.

In a planted tank, the plants (when healthy) actually consume NH4/NH3 and they discharge oxygen back into the water column. The NO3 that you add is inorganic. It does not have to go through the toxic cycle and does not steal oxygen from the water column. It's already fully formed. It also helps the plants tremendously thereby lowering the total toxic effects in the tank and boosting the fishes health by oxygenation. It's therefore pointless to worry about dosing inorganic nutrients because they are your staunchest allies, not your enemies."

Quote taken from Ukaps site which can be found here


From the above it is hard to take this at full value,

you'd certaintly get a lot of critical comments from UKAPS as it has been proven by planted aquarists that Discus and cichlids thrive in nitrate levels between 100 and 200ppm

Also its not hard to keep nitrate values relatively low, so to get a value of 200ppm then you are either dosing with ferts that have a high nitrate content or your not really paying enough attention to your aquarium.

 

[mark4785]

I didn't realise that my nitrate fertiliser actually interfered with my nitrate testing kit. UKAPS members have always said to me that the nitrate fert will interfere with the ammonia test kit; they simply think that the nitrate test kit is unreliable but have never said it was made further unreliable when used to test water with nitrate fert in it.

"there is a huge difference between the nitrate that evolves from the organic waste in the tank and the nitrate that you add via dosing. The toxicity of organically derived NO3 (fish waste, food decay, detritus and so forth) is not due to the NO3 itself, it's really due to the process of nitrification and of the toxic compounds that the NO3 starts off as. Decay and waste generate ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4) which is extremely toxic. The bacteris then convert the ammonia to Nitrite (NO2) which is only slightly less toxic than ammonia. In order to accomplish this they use oxygen from the water column, thus stealing it from the fish. Then, other bacteria strip even more oxygen from the water column to generate NO3. NO3 is therefore the smoking gun. The fish are exposed to two counts of toxicity (NH4/NO2) combined with hypoxia to boot. At the end of this toxic cycle people measure NO3 content and get hysterical.

In a planted tank, the plants (when healthy) actually consume NH4/NH3 and they discharge oxygen back into the water column. The NO3 that you add is inorganic. It does not have to go through the toxic cycle and does not steal oxygen from the water column. It's already fully formed. It also helps the plants tremendously thereby lowering the total toxic effects in the tank and boosting the fishes health by oxygenation. It's therefore pointless to worry about dosing inorganic nutrients because they are your staunchest allies, not your enemies."

Quote taken from Ukaps site which can be found here


From the above it is hard to take this at full value,

you'd certaintly get a lot of critical comments from UKAPS as it has been proven by planted aquarists that Discus and cichlids thrive in nitrate levels between 100 and 200ppm

Also its not hard to keep nitrate values relatively low, so to get a value of 200ppm then you are either dosing with ferts that have a high nitrate content or your not really paying enough attention to your aquarium.

I never said I reach nitrate levels of 200ppm.

My nitrate level is listed in my first post very clearly.

The post you've linked to seems to be describing an ammonia, nitrite and nitrate spike which isn't the issue I brought to the table. I don't have ammonia/nitrite spikes and the nitrate produced is largely inorganic (i.e. dosed).

 

[mark4785]

UPDATE: I am still treating the male GBR for HITH with metronidazole; I am applying it to the water column and mixing into blood worm. Fish seems happy, colourful and his appetite is good but the HITH spots are not getting better.

Does anybody vaguely know the time scale involved to cure HITH?

Mark.

 

[mark4785]

Bump.

Update: the fish now has pop-eye in one of his eyes. He's just not responding to the antibiotics/antiparasite properties of the metronidazole treatment.