Cichlid Newbie

[yabadaba]

Hi Guys, I have a 5x2x2 tank (c. 500 litres) that has been fishless cycling for 10 weeks and is now ready. I've decided that I want to stock it with cichlids. For the last few weeks I've been trying to decide between going down the old world or new world route. At present I'm favouring the old world because the fish don't seem (on average) to be as large as the new worlds and I quite like the concept of keeping a large stock to help diffuse aggression as opposed to keeping just a handful of larger ones. But, I was wondering what my water chemistry is best suited to...that might swing me either way.

Testing with the API Master kit The pH reads 7.6 (top of scale) on the low range test and closest to 8.0 on the high range test, so I guess that means it's at 8.0. From what I've read that would be okay(ish) for most Lake Malawi fish, but too low for ones from Lake Tanganyika. Is that about right? Also, I've heard that GH and KH matter, too, but the only way I have of testing those is via one of the Tetra strips. What's the deal with GH & KH please?

One more question, if you don't mind. I read somewhere about placing some material on the inside base of the aquarium to help distribute the weight from the rocks (which seems to be the standard decor). Is this something I'd need to add? Currently all I have in the tank is about 2.5" of standard aquarium sand ( I was going to go communal) and a few plants that I'll happily ditch. Maybe I'd be okay without adding this material if I just went with lava rock, given the lower weight?

Oh, and my filter is 1 x Eheim 2080....would that be sufficient?

Any other general advice much appreciated...I want to get this right!

 

[Redrum]

ON the subject on distrubuting the weight of the rocks i would highly reccomend to cover the bottom of the tank with eggcrate BEFORE you put your substrate in. Preferibly sand of crushed coral should be your substrate as the coral will keep your ph up but depending on the species you get sand might be the way to go. FOr example lake malawli peacocks sift through the sand often and crushed coral can damage their gills when they do this. YOur filter should be fine.

 

[yabadaba]

Thanks. I bought 3 x 25kg bags of coral sand today and tomorrow I'll try and find some eggcrate. Was hoping to add the first fish tomorrow, but I guess I can wait another day or two. I'd prefer to get it right after all this waiting (for my tank to cycle) and laying that eggcrate stuff down under the rocks will give me some peace of mind.

 

[Redrum]

Thanks. I bought 3 x 25kg bags of coral sand today and tomorrow I'll try and find some eggcrate. Was hoping to add the first fish tomorrow, but I guess I can wait another day or two. I'd prefer to get it right after all this waiting (for my tank to cycle) and laying that eggcrate stuff down under the rocks will give me some peace of mind.

Always glad to help
How long have you been cycling you tank for

 

[yabadaba]

Thanks. I bought 3 x 25kg bags of coral sand today and tomorrow I'll try and find some eggcrate. Was hoping to add the first fish tomorrow, but I guess I can wait another day or two. I'd prefer to get it right after all this waiting (for my tank to cycle) and laying that eggcrate stuff down under the rocks will give me some peace of mind.

Always glad to help
How long have you been cycling you tank for

Into the 11th week now. I had a thread going on the beginners forum about it because I was concerned that the nitrite just wouldn't clear within 12hrs, although for weeks it has cleared (and still does) in about 15-16hrs. Ammonia has been clearing in under 12hrs since about week 6. The advice from one of the more experienced and respected members was basically to go ahead and add fish, but don't fully stock just yet, which makes sense to me. My only fear is that I end up having to do water changes every day, which wouldn't be too much of a hardship on my 60 and 110 litre tanks, but would be on this one.

On a different note, I am confident about getting the 'right' fish. One of my local (well about 12 miles away) Maidenhead Aquatics has a good selection of African Cichlids and the two guys who I've met that work there seem very knowledgeable on them. I detect more of a pride and passion in what they communicate to me rather than simply a desire to flog a bunch of fish and the one I spoke to yesterday was very keen on helping me choose fish to start off with that would work well together. It's the first time I've actually not felt the need to doubt/question what someone in a LFS has told me!

 

[dthoffsett]

IMO eggcrate is a personal choice, if it makes you feel better go for it, you'd be surprised how much weight a tank can hold. Whatever you do, be sure to put your rocks/decor on the bottom of the tank, then put in the substrate. Mbuna love to dig and collapse structures if they are able to dig under them.

If you haven't already done so, I'd highly recommend reading this link, and not just because I wrote it.

There's a lot of good information in there for setting up your first mbuna tank.

 

[yabadaba]

IMO eggcrate is a personal choice, if it makes you feel better go for it, you'd be surprised how much weight a tank can hold. Whatever you do, be sure to put your rocks/decor on the bottom of the tank, then put in the substrate. Mbuna love to dig and collapse structures if they are able to dig under them.

If you haven't already done so, I'd highly recommend reading this link, and not just because I wrote it.

There's a lot of good information in there for setting up your first mbuna tank.

I guess I'm concerned because it's Ocean Rock that I would be placing in the tank and it's very jagged stuff, meaning that the point load at certain places would be quite high (especially when stacked) and, like most UK aquariums, my base is not tempered glass. Quite probably piece of mind, but I might not be seeking that if I had a tempered glass base.

 

[dthoffsett]

I guess I'm concerned because it's Ocean Rock that I would be placing in the tank and it's very jagged stuff, meaning that the point load at certain places would be quite high (especially when stacked) and, like most UK aquariums, my base is not tempered glass. Quite probably piece of mind, but I might not be seeking that if I had a tempered glass base.

That makes sense, I wasn't aware it's common for tanks in the UK to not have tempered glass.

 

[kiriyama]

Sorry to nudge in , I have some rocks I was going to put in the next few days, don't know what egg crate is , is it clear plastic stuff .......................??

 

[yabadaba]

Sorry to nudge in , I have some rocks I was going to put in the next few days, don't know what egg crate is , is it clear plastic stuff .......................??

It's a plastic grid, that tends to come in white, grey or black. You lay it like a mat on the base of the tank to help support the rocks and spread the load. There's quite a lot of debate about whether it's needed and I'm sure in many scenarios it is not, though I think in may case it might well be worthwhile.

The ones I've gone for are sold as being for supporting marine reefs/coral, though the same stuff seems to be used as grids for pond/Koi filters and many people just buy what is sold as lighting diffuser in hardware stores, as that is usually cheaper. All appear to be fundamentally the same thing though. Just search on ebay 'egg crate' or 'koi filter grid' and you'll find it.

 

[Bungy]

Just readying this thread with interest. First thing springs to mind is the length of time it has taken to cycle your filter using the fishless method - I always use this method now (5ppm Ammonia) and providing I add plenty of "squeeze" from other mature filter sponges I can fully cycle in less than 15 days - meaning I can add a full bio-load of fish all at once. By adding fish in small numbers you will in effect bring on a die-back of helpful bacteria you have been so careful to colonise as the bacteria simply dont have sufficient waste matter to feed on - just a thought..! As for protecting the base of the tank - I have several 4' tanks and loads of 3' growing tanks in my fish-house all with lots of rockwork and I must admit I have not added anything special to the base other than a thick layer of crushed coral subtrate. The fish will dig constantly and the rockwork will be subject to movement or even toppling/collapse etc however as a Malawi breeder I separate any holding females to their own tank until spit / reconditioning then prior to re-introducing back to her main tank I have to re-arrange the rockwork so that all the occupants have to re-stake their terrotories and thus dont notice the newly introduced female - they would likely kill her otherwise. During this process I ensure that the rockwork has at least 3 inches of subtrate below - this seems to work for me.
Your PH sounds fine - at 7.5 you will be ok with both Malawi and Tanganyika species however 8 is preferred especially if wild caught specimens are being introduced. Tank bread species have had time to adjust to a lower PH/GH/KH but dont go below 7.3 ish - the crushed coral subtrate will help. Temp should be around 80f if breeding however 75f ish is fine. I have used Larva rock in the past but found that damage to scales has occurred sometimes during the "breeding chase" from the sharp edges - these days I prefer to use any rockwork, river boulders, Granite but my preferred choice is limestone of some description as this helps to buffer up the PH etc. The vinigar test is useful, if it fizzes on contact with the rock then limestone is present. Good filtration is essential with this species, they eat very well and as such produce plenty of waste, aim for at least 3 times per hour turnover, more if possible. They like highly oxygenated water too. Ensure you feed plenty of Vegi matter, and go easy on the live foods such as whiteworms as too much protein can bring on a condition called Bloat which irritates the digestive tracts and is often fatal.

Hope this helps

Bungy

 

[yabadaba]

Just readying this thread with interest. First thing springs to mind is the length of time it has taken to cycle your filter using the fishless method - I always use this method now (5ppm Ammonia) and providing I add plenty of "squeeze" from other mature filter sponges I can fully cycle in less than 15 days - meaning I can add a full bio-load of fish all at once. By adding fish in small numbers you will in effect bring on a die-back of helpful bacteria you have been so careful to colonise as the bacteria simply dont have sufficient waste matter to feed on - just a thought..! As for protecting the base of the tank - I have several 4' tanks and loads of 3' growing tanks in my fish-house all with lots of rockwork and I must admit I have not added anything special to the base other than a thick layer of crushed coral subtrate. The fish will dig constantly and the rockwork will be subject to movement or even toppling/collapse etc however as a Malawi breeder I separate any holding females to their own tank until spit / reconditioning then prior to re-introducing back to her main tank I have to re-arrange the rockwork so that all the occupants have to re-stake their terrotories and thus dont notice the newly introduced female - they would likely kill her otherwise. During this process I ensure that the rockwork has at least 3 inches of subtrate below - this seems to work for me.
Your PH sounds fine - at 7.5 you will be ok with both Malawi and Tanganyika species however 8 is preferred especially if wild caught specimens are being introduced. Tank bread species have had time to adjust to a lower PH/GH/KH but dont go below 7.3 ish - the crushed coral subtrate will help. Temp should be around 80f if breeding however 75f ish is fine. I have used Larva rock in the past but found that damage to scales has occurred sometimes during the "breeding chase" from the sharp edges - these days I prefer to use any rockwork, river boulders, Granite but my preferred choice is limestone of some description as this helps to buffer up the PH etc. The vinigar test is useful, if it fizzes on contact with the rock then limestone is present. Good filtration is essential with this species, they eat very well and as such produce plenty of waste, aim for at least 3 times per hour turnover, more if possible. They like highly oxygenated water too. Ensure you feed plenty of Vegi matter, and go easy on the live foods such as whiteworms as too much protein can bring on a condition called Bloat which irritates the digestive tracts and is often fatal.

Hope this helps

Bungy

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. I was getting quite used to looking after community fish, but cichlids is moving into uncharted water for me....strict rules around pH/decor, feeding, compatibility, etc. Back on the learning curve, but I guess I enjoy that!

Maybe where I've gone wrong with the fishless cycle is that I haven't been adding filter 'squeeze'...only initially and even then that was from a much smaller internal filter. I could kick myself for not having done that now...the amount of times I've rinsed out or changed pads on my Fluval U3 and 'wasted' good bacteria since starting to cycle my new tank doesn't bare thinking about!

The possibility of some bacteria dying off because of lack of 'food' is something I have thought about, but I do intend to add a reasonable number of fish...just not to sure how many to be honest. I know if I go straight for the more aggressive variety then I'll need a fairly large number to help minimise aggression, but I'd still prefer to be in the situation where the bioload is slightly under the current capacity of my filter so that I don't end up having to do daily water changes to try and keep nitrite levels down. A bit of a balancing act I guess!

I believe my My pH is about 8.0 so it's good to hear that's at about the right mark. I'll be swapping out the regular sand I have in the tank for coral sand and be adding about 75kg of ocean rock before I add the first fish, so hopefully that will help to maintain the pH. In fact it might even exceed 8.0 because that's the reading I get from the water in my community tank that has a piece of bogwood and a few plants in it.

Thanks for the comments on the filtration....it does confirm what I've been thinking. My Eheim 2080 is supposed to do about 1700lph, so that will probably work out to about a 3.5 per hour turnover if the figures are to be believed, but as my stocking increases I'll probably add another Eheim filter, maybe an other 2080 though more likely one of the models with just the one inlet, like the 2078e. I've got an air pump that I'll use too, in order to get some more surface agitation and help oxygenation.

As regards feeding, it sounds like I'd better avoid too much bloodworm then. My community fish love it and I probably feed it to them too much. I guess algae wafers and other types of veggie based pellets should be regularly on the menu then?

 

[Redrum]

You should probably only add around 3 fish at first and see how your levels are after that and if they look good then you can add more fish

 

[yabadaba]

You should probably only add around 3 fish at first and see how your levels are after that and if they look good then you can add more fish

Hmm, I know I probably need to be careful but I'm sticking 25ml of ammonia in the tank every 24hrs now and it clears that in aound 9-10hrs, it's just the bacteria colony that go to work on the the nitrite that have been slower to develop, but are still clearing it in around 15hrs. So dropping to the ammonia equivalent of 3 fish, even cichlids, might be being a little over cautious. I was thinking maybe 6 or 7. Then again, if I do that and end up having to do daily water changes I'll be kicking myself

 

[dthoffsett]

With a fishless cycle you can add your entire bioload at once. I added 17 juvies to a 75gal after cycling and didn't see a blip on the levels.

As for your filtration, with mbuna due to overstocking and the amount of waste they produce, for a fully stocked tank you're looking at a minimum turnover of 8-10 times per hour. As juvies you can get away with 3-5 times. So you'll definitely need to add filtration as they grow.

For feeding, that vast majority of mbuna are herbivores so no meaty foods (bloodworms are out) you'll want to find a nice spirulina flake/pellet and other veggie staples. Fresh (blanched) veggies can be added to the tank as treats and if you can source it, spirulina enriched frozen brine shrimp can be fed as a treat a couple of times a month.