Changing Gravel To Flourite Bed...some Questions

[trojannemo]

seeing as the majority of my plants died out as a combination of lack of nutrients and elevated salt levels due to an ich treatment, i think i might take this opportunity to redo the tank from scratch.
right now i have 50 lbs of black gravel substrate, with nothing in it for plants.
i was thinking of changing to this:

using 3 bags of that gives me 46 lbs of substrate, so it will be around the same as I have now. but all flourite. on the site it says it's safe to use that, but i swear i had read somewhere that these things give off something that stains the water or something...or was that laterite?

Seachem Flourite 7kg bag

is that going to be a good idea? anyone here use it?
my big concern is doing the actual change, I'm thinking of getting two 10G tanks ($8 each only) and filling them with tank water, putting my fish in there while I do the work...will that be too stressful? if so, what's a better way of going about it?

will the change of substrate not precipitate a new cycle in the tank since all that bacteria will be lost?

once the substrate is changed to this, I will still need to dose the nutrients right? will the Seachem Flourish line of nutrients complement the flourite well?


while i'm at it and if you don't mind me asking...right now i have 2WPG using a Hagen Glo T-5 system and i will be getting a second one for a total of 4WPG of 6700K spectrum light. i know at that point i'm required to dose CO2 but I dont have the space nor the money to get a pressurized system.
i've seen the DIY and i'm sure I could make my own, but i don't mind paying for a yeast-system that will give me better/more consistent results.
I have a 38G tank and I thought of getting two of this Hagen system:
Hagen PlantGro CO2 System

will that system work well with the above substrate, nutrients and 4 WPG? i dont intend to ever enter any competition or anything, but I would like to know that the plant I buy will survive in my aquarium

thanks for the help

 

[aaronnorth]

is that going to be a good idea? anyone here use it?

It needs capping with another substrate, apart from that it will be fine

my big concern is doing the actual change, I'm thinking of getting two 10G tanks ($8 each only) and filling them with tank water, putting my fish in there while I do the work...will that be too stressful? if so, what's a better way of going about it?

Leave the fish in, they will move out the way or get some cheap plastic buckets/ bins and put them in.

will the change of substrate not precipitate a new cycle in the tank since all that bacteria will be lost

Your filter will be able to cope with it as long as it is big enough.

once the substrate is changed to this, I will still need to dose the nutrients right? will the Seachem Flourish line of nutrients complement the flourite well

You still need to dose in the water column. Seachem flourish will be ok, dosing daily is better than weekly. You dont have to use seachem products together, i would also recomend Tropica plant nutrition (available from Aqua Essentials or The Green Machine - special offer going on 250ml bottles!!)

while i'm at it and if you don't mind me asking...right now i have 2WPG using a Hagen Glo T-5 system and i will be getting a second one for a total of 4WPG of 6700K spectrum light. i know at

4WPG on a 38g tank is overkill IMO, i would go no higher than 3WPG. The rule is more leanient on larger tanks above 30g

i've seen the DIY and i'm sure I could make my own

It is easier than it looks, 10 minute job! I can give you the links to everything you need if you want?? If you are going to go down the fermentation route then go DIY - it is the same as the nutrafin but 10X cheaper!

http/www.fishforever.co.uk/carbondioxide.html

HTH, Aaron

 

[trojannemo]

thanks for the answers...

every time i ask for help I go and try to find it myself while I wait for you guys to post...and i already changed my mind on a lot of things.

i'm no longer going to use the regular flourite substrate. instead i'll be using Seachem Black Sand Flourite which looks like Tahitian Moon Sand but doesn't need to be mixed in with any other substrate...i.e. it's ideal for a planted tank.

For nutrients I found out that Seachem has an entire line of inexpensive products, so i'll be dosing the following using their schedule at first until I can develop my own:
Seachem Flourish
Seachem Flourish Excel
Seachem Flourish Iron
Seachem Flourish Nitrogen
Seachem Flourish Phosphorus
Seachem Flourish Potassium
Seachem Flourish Trace

and for lighting i'm not sure if i'm going to get a second Hagen Glo to go with my existing one, or just upgrade to a Nova Extreme which includes 4 bulbs, lunar lights and a fan for the heat. I like the idea of the Nova, but it's size will make feeding, and any tank maintenance difficult...either way, i'm going to be using a combination of my existing 2x 6700K bulbs and 2x Planta pink bulbs.

the filters I have now are a biowheel 50G and a HOB wet/dry for 40G...both from Marineland...though i'm also considering selling those and just changing to one Emperor 400...it'll give me a little more GPH, two bio-wheels, easier maitenance and only one intake visible in the tank...

the reason why I would like to use Nutrafin's CO2 system is that the canisters are more compact and I don't have much space under the tank. also their system works for 90 days before I need to refill...the DIY system seems like every week or so i'd have to refill it...i'm still considering this option, i'm looking at pressurized systems and stuff, maybe I can do the DIY way with pressurized, or just get the nutrafin for now and come january upgrade to a fully automatic pressurized system...I dont know yet!


so a lot of things to think about...i did my own homework!

unfortunately all this will have to wait till mid-september, but i'll post back once i decide and implement the changes.

 

[aaronnorth]

we are in different time zones aren't we?

Seachem Flourish
Seachem Flourish Excel
Seachem Flourish Iron
Seachem Flourish Nitrogen
Seachem Flourish Phosphorus
Seachem Flourish Potassium
Seachem Flourish Trace

please, please, please dont buy all of them, go for tropica plant nutrition+ it has all off them in one solution (except for the excell) [URL="http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...roducts_id=1038"]http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...roducts_id=1038[/URL]

The green machine has a special offer: [URL="http/www.thegreenmachineaquatics.com/mall/index.cfm"]http/www.thegreenmachineaquatics.com/mall/index.cfm[/URL]

if you want excell, then go for easycarbo which is the same but cheaper! also available at aqua essentials.

their system works for 90 days before I need to refill...the DIY system seems like every week or so i'd have to refill it

thats using their yeast that they supply, it doesnt put out much CO2 as bakers yeast or brewers yeast, thats why you will hear everyone who knows best say - THROW THEM AWAY! follow the guide at the top of this page.

 

[Wolfenrook]

A few things I have to disagree with there

Flourite does not have to be capped, it can be used on it's own.

If you can it might be better to rehome the fish whilst you change over. The disturbance might not bother them, but if you get a lot of dust off the new substrate THIS will. Plus when you disturb an old substrate you get ammonia etc released. Most of all though it's much easier to change a substrate in a drained tank, than it is in a full tank, less messy as well.

DON'T do more than 50% of the substrate at a time as your substrate DOES make up a large part of your biological filtration. It could be fine changing it all if you don't have sensitive species, but more sensitive fish like ottos etc could suffer. Better to spread the change out more. The filter might be big, but it wont hold ALL of your filtration bacteria and WONT be able to adjust to the higher levels that fast either.

4wpg on a 38 gallon tank isn't overkill at all. So long as you have a good dosing regime, and PRESSURISED CO2 (DIY just can't maintain the CO2 levels needed with such high lighting) and don't mind a lot of pruning it can look absolutely brilliant! More work though. If you are going for 4wpg though you need to get pressurised CO2 kit and get good stable CO2 levels of about 30ppm (using a gradual increase) BEFORE you increase the lighting, otherwise you end up farming algae. DIY CO2 is only really usable of tanks of 10 gallons or smaller or with light levels of about 3wpg (T8) and lower. This isn't just hearsay, I have actually tried it myself, and although I didn't have the terrible algae that some experience, I did have considerable growth of green bush algae on my substrate and decor which was reduced a LOT by switching to pressurised kit.

In my 11 years of keeping planted tanks, I've tried a lot of different methods and experienced a lot of different results.

Ade

 

[trojannemo]

thanks for the many comments.

based on your post....would you say it would be better to get the pressurized CO2 system now with the flourite sand and keep using my 2WPG of lighting for now, and then later on upgrade the lighting rather than upgrade the lighting and then get the pressurized CO2?

i was about to spend $200 on the lighting system that can go towards a good automatic/semi-automatic CO2...but is it ok to use with only 2WPG of T5-HO lighting?

 

[trojannemo]

we are in different time zones aren't we?

yes we are! im in Miami, Florida...while it appears most users here are from across the pond

please, please, please dont buy all of them, go for tropica plant nutrition+ it has all off them in one solution (except for the excell) <a href="http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...roducts_id=1038" target="_blank">http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...roducts_id=1038</a>

The green machine has a special offer: <a href="http/www.thegreenmachineaquatics.com/mall/index.cfm" target="_blank">http/www.thegreenmachineaquatics.com/mall/index.cfm</a>

i have heard this product mentioned but have yet to see it available in any US retailer. i'll do an online search see if anyone ships it to the US. Drs Foster & Smith website doesn't seem to carry it and that's why I was going with the Seachem line...

 

[Wolfenrook]

thanks for the many comments.

based on your post....would you say it would be better to get the pressurized CO2 system now with the flourite sand and keep using my 2WPG of lighting for now, and then later on upgrade the lighting rather than upgrade the lighting and then get the pressurized CO2?

i was about to spend $200 on the lighting system that can go towards a good automatic/semi-automatic CO2...but is it ok to use with only 2WPG of T5-HO lighting?

Yes I would, get your CO2 kit first and then spend money on the lighting. You can use CO2 with any level of lighting, you just change the amount you inject according to the needs of the plants. 30ppm is the amount usually used in tanks with heavy planting and high lighting, in tanks with less lighting you can get away with using between 15-25ppm happily. Only difference is that less light means that the plants need and use less CO2 and ferts. Bear in mind though that your 2wpg of T5-HO is probably comparable to about 3wpg of T8 lighting, which was what the original wpg guidance was based on, so you already have medium-high lighting.

Upgrading lighting first and then getting pressurised CO2 I can pretty much promise you that you will see an increase in the growth of algae. Much better to do it the other way around and avoid all of those problems.

Ade

 

[aaronnorth]

light controls everything, less light light means there is less room for error! I have changed the whole substrate before with no problems, the most sensitive fishes were gouramis (dwarf & honey).

4wpg on a 38 gallon tank isn't overkill at all

It is HO T5. You said that 2WPG would be more like 3WPG, so this will be like 6WPG, I think 3WPG is fine for this size tank.

I had 1.2WPG HO T5 on a 40g tank and i could grow anything.

 

[Wolfenrook]

light controls everything, less light light means there is less room for error! I have changed the whole substrate before with no problems, the most sensitive fishes were gouramis (dwarf & honey).

4wpg on a 38 gallon tank isn't overkill at all

It is HO T5. You said that 2WPG would be more like 3WPG, so this will be like 6WPG, I think 3WPG is fine for this size tank.

I had 1.2WPG HO T5 on a 40g tank and i could grow anything.

I have over 4wpg HO T5 over my 180 litre tank, and can literally grow anything, usually at astonishing growth rates. Higher lighting also makes growing harder red plants much easier, with better reds, plus it allows you to grow marble queen with the marbling actually visible. It does however send plant growth into 'hyperdrive', meaning that you have to stay right on top of fert dosing, CO2 injection and pruning, balancing on a knife edge. I find this fun though.

Oh, and dwarf gourami aren't all that sensitive. lol

Ade

 

[aaronnorth]

I find this fun though.

lol

Oh, and dwarf gourami aren't all that sensitive.

They can be fussy at times, especially with high NO3

 

[Wolfenrook]

I find this fun though.

lol

Oh, and dwarf gourami aren't all that sensitive.

They can be fussy at times, especially with high NO3

They have nothing on dwarf shrimp. My powder blue dwarf gourami are as tough as anything, they were even fine about me dosing higher levels of TPN+, couldn't say the same for my cherry shrimp who got most upset with me, or my macrobrachium lanchesteri (not stricly speaking dwarf shrimp, but still the same kind of thing) most of which died. It's all relative really, when you handle very sensitive species others seem less so. Hence I err on the site of caution, but it usually pays dividends. I never use water from the hot tap in water changes either, I use boiled water to increase the temperature and then give it a good stir and let it stand a few minutes.

In 11 years of planted tank keeping, and 22 years of aquarium keeping, I've picked a bit up and learned from many mistakes.

Ade

 

[aaronnorth]

why dont you use hot tap?

 

[Wolfenrook]

why dont you use hot tap?

Because I have a boiler/tank system rather than a combination boiler. This means that the hot water sits in the COPPER tank for long periods of time before it is used, absorbing more copper from the tank. This problem is even worst in newer installations and soft water areas where there is less limescale build up. The water from my hot tap has a much higher level of copper in it than the water from my cold water taps which come directly from the main.

Ade

 

[aaronnorth]

I also have a boiler Hard water though. Shrimps are ok and so are fish after the last 3 years so i wont stop