Can the water that terrestrial plants pull out of an aquarium, count as part of you water change???

Magnum Man

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So, I get that regular evaporation shouldn’t count as water change water, because it doesn’t remove any pollutants from the aquarium water, it actually concentrates them….

But if you have a high volume of aggressively growing plants, the water they are drawing in, from the aquarium is removing pollutants…

In theory, if you had enough, of the right kinds of plants, could your plants do all your water changes…

So, question for discussion, is… is there any pollutant, put out by the fish, or their environment, that can’t be absorbed by a plant??? Granted it may take a lot of plants, or maybe some specialized plants, or even a circulation bed, full of plants, depending on how many fish you had… certainly not going to happen in my heavily populated display tanks…

But if you had a 20 foot pothos vine, for example, is something like that measurable in inches of fish, as far as keeping something sustainable???

Sorry, my mind wanders, when I wake up watching my fish, and drink my caffeine, and have the time…
 
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This is going to be fun to play with :)

Answer is yes and no, but mainly no. Oh contradictions :)

You do water changes for a number of reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate. The plants will do this.

2) to dilute disease organisms in the water. The plants won't do this.

3) to keep the pH, KH and GH stable. The plants will reduce the minerals a small amount but won't replace minerals, so the GH and KH could drop over time if you have very soft water. However, if the plants only take up a small amount of minerals, and your tap water is hard, the GH, KH and pH could actually go up over time if you just top up the tank.

4) to dilute nitric acid produced by fish food and waste breaking down. The plants won't reduce nitric acid in water but by removing ammonia they will reduce the nitric acid build up so it won't happen as fast. Limestone and shells in the tank will help to neutralise the nitric acid.

5) to dilute stress chemicals (pheromones/ allomones) released by the fish. The plants won't do this but carbon does.

6) to dilute un-used plant fertiliser so you don't overdose the fish when you add more. The plants will do this to a degree depending on how many plants are feeding on the nutrients in the water.

7) to remove fish waste and other rotting organic matter. The plants won't do this. You will need to use a gravel cleaner to remove the gunk, which is a breeding ground for harmful pathogens like protozoa.
 
Just the kind of response I was looking for…
BTW… in my case, I’m using RO water, in most tanks, so those have very little minerals in the make up water anyway…

In experimenting with the plants, there are some plants, that don’t seem to need additional fertilizer… Pothos, and Chinese Evergreen, for example, are both seeming to flourish, with fish waste, and without adding fertilizer… Calathea, has not flourished in those conditions, and seems to need additional fertilizer… as aquarium plants, I don’t like to add additional chemicals to the tanks, that the fish don’t require… so, definitely plant choices would make a huge difference…

Carbon is an excellent addition to this discussion… I don’t generally use it in my tanks, doing water changes. .. but it may be something that is needed on a no water change setup… but maybe there are other plants that absorb enough of the pheromones???
 
Perhaps the addition of copods, and other microfona, to the substrate, could take care of #7 ???
 
… and just to clarify, I’m not advocating, or trying to stop doing water changes… though there is that school of thought out there… my mind is just exploring, what would really have to happen, to stop doing water changes… obviously, for example, the regular addition of adding carbon, isn’t part of those no maintenance “systems”
 
UV sterilization, I don’t think is a normal part of the no water change systems ( I have honestly never read up on any of the no water change methods ), but assume UV could control #2 ??? So far, I don’t own a UV
 
As far as types of plants, sometimes lucky is better than good…

In a quick www. search, water hyacinths come up repeatedly as one of the better plants, at absorbing water pollution… not sure what all it’s capable of absorbing, but I happen to be trying it as a floating plant, in a couple of my aquariums right now…
So that is already in use in aquariums… more research would be needed, as to what it will actually absorb…
 
The real problem that has no solution in nature comes from the nonabsorbent compounds. or the one that get trapped then released but are still there...

Heavy metals, microplastics, Pharmaceuticals.

The fish themselves do not produce non breakable contaminants. however like plants they do accumulate them.

It depends on the specific substances involved. But generally speaking, there isn't a single pollutant from fish that all plants can't absorb.
 
I really like @Colin_T 's response. Every point he raises is crucial, and you can't push aside any of them. Some plants will take a lot out of the water, including things you may not want taken. Water changes replenish those supplies.

I have had terrestrial plant roots in my tanks going back at least 15 years, maybe a bit more. The masses of roots have sometimes filled 20% of the tanks. I stock lightly, and feed carefully. And I do regular 30%ish water changes, every 7-8 days. I don't have any sense that the plant roots do more than support my maintenance regime, and I have had 18 foot vines wending their way around rooms, limited only by light. In one of my 75s now, I have a peace lily that shades half the tank.
The plants pull the tanks into the human living space and they even flower. But I don't see them as filters. They're just helpful secondary elements in the set up to me.
 
@MaloK …Unfortunately, if you are on municipal water, your water change water levels likely contains these, unless you are taking steps to remove them…
 
Carbon for terrestrial plants with roots in the aquarium water will come form the atmosphere. They just take up carbon dioxide with their leaves for their carbon and the roots take up oxygen.

An ultraviolet (UV) steriliser will kill pathogens in the water when the water passes through the UV light. But it won't kill pathogens in the substrate, filter or in water that does not pass through the UV light. So there will always be a number of pathogens like protozoan, fungus, harmful bacteria, viruses and worms/ flukes in the aquarium at any time.

Copepods, Amphipods and other crustaceans that live on the bottom will help break down the fish waste faster but they won't remove it. They also create waste of their own. The harmful disease organisms like the broken down waste products sitting in the substrate and unless it's removed from the aquarium, it will always encourage pathogens regardless of how well broken down it is.

Even though water changes don't occur every week in the wild, there are periods when sufficient rainfall flushes out creeks and rivers and removes all the gunk on the bottom. The rain usually washes in a lot of new leaf litter as well but the really fine stuff that has been breaking down for months will be washed away by the rain, along with any associated microscopic organisms. In an aquarium we try to simulate rainfall during the wet season and do it on a regular basis to try and keep things cleaner and more stable.
 
I as going to mention that earlier… many of these no water change systems, don’t take into account, that most natural water systems exchange water, at least annually, and the less often that a water system changes, the more likely it’ll be an extreme amount
 
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There are some pernicious myths about water charges that can be pretty widespread online. One is the idea that if a tank is heavily planted enough that water changes aren't needed. Colin's excellent list provides a great number of other reasons that water changes are needed.
Also people have the idea that if their parameter tests are ok, then a water change isn't needed. Again, there are lots of other reasons besides diluting nitrates. We don't do regular water changes to fix bad water parameters so much as we do them to keep the water stable so that the parameters never get bad.
There's this idea that a no water change tank is more "natural". Problem with that is while our aquariums might simulate nature, they can never replicate it entirely. Our aquariums are an enclosed system while nature is not. Nature does constant massive water charges. Fresh water flows through rivers and streams into lakes and the ocean. There are a few systems where this does not happen and the bodies of water are just "topped off", so to speak. But no one wants their aquarium to be like the Dead Sea.
 
4) to dilute nitric acid produced by fish food and waste breaking down. The plants won't reduce nitric acid in water but by removing ammonia they will reduce the nitric acid build up so it won't happen as fast. Limestone and shells in the tank will help to neutralise the nitric acid.

Nitric acid in tanks is created by nitrate. Plants will use nitrate as will algae. If the nitrate is being used, nitric acid is not an issue. Similarly, nitrite will create nitrous acid in a tank. This is not real stable however, but it can cause issues. In a cycled tank, nitrous acid should not be a serious problem because nitrite does not accumulate. Also, when the plants and algae use ammonium, they do not create nitrate, the bacteria do this. So, the plants are using both ammonium and nitrate which means nitric acid is not normally an issue especiallyt tanks that get regular water changes. But I also know in tanks where I have mattenfilters that I have denirification hapening in the massive foam used for this kind of filter. No plants are in my tanks with Mattenfilters, but I do not have nitrate issues either. What I have inside the foam are facultative bacteria.

Basically, the cycle creates acid. Acid in water can cause the pH to drop. However, this is mitigated by the KH. In tanks most of KH comes from carbonates and bicarbonates. The nitrifying bacteria use these components as well as CO2 to provide the inorganic carbon they need. In addition, some plants can use the carbonates and bicarbonates as well as CO2. So without water changes these will become depleted sooner or later.

In the absence of water changes the buffering capacity will decline and the pH of the water will become increasingly more acidic. This is one of the most common problems in Old Tank Syndrome.

Water chemistry is complex. For example, plants use ammonium while the bacteria and Archaea use ammonia. When the plants use ammonium there is no nitrite or nitrate created. However, we do not want to be adding ammonium to our water to feed plants. And then there is the algae which also uses ammonium. And both plants and algae can use nitrate when ammonium is not present in enough amounts to satisfy their needs. In a cycled tank with plants and algae, nitrate is one of the primary sources of nitrogen for the plants and algae.

Also, if one has substrate of any depth, there is very little or no O below about an inch of depth. Most of the roots of substrate plants in our tanks are in anaerobic zones. But some plants in our tanks will actually transport oxygen down to their root where they release it in the anaerobic zone. The result is the presence of released O makes it possible for the nitrifying bacteria to function, which they do. And while they are using ammonia, they are also making nitrate. And then what happens is that zones above and below the roots develop denitrifying bacteria. There is as linking between the newly created aerobic areas and the new denitrifying areas.

Finally, the deeper one's substrate, the less circulation there will be with the depth. And there is plenty of research which discusses root feeding fromthe substrate and then fromt the water. The more food in the water the less that must be obtained from roots or vice versa.

All of the above is complicated by the fact that tap water parameters vary, plant needs and what they use varies and then water changes also effect the chemistry. My personal belief is that any give tank has its own unique chemistry. In some case we have tanks with pretty similar composition in terns of nutrients, minerals, trace elements etc. And then there are variables like stocking, feeding and maint. which also have an effect.

So the variables involved can vary greatly fromtank to tank. But the main protection put fish have against diseases etc. is their natural immunity. And this is not a universal. As long as the concentration of any pathogens are low, many fish can fight them off. But if the fish has it's immune system weakened by stress, poor nutrition etc., it can then succumb to what it would otherwise be able to fight off.

One good example is Ich. If a fish is attacked by this and manages to fight it off, with or without the aid of treatment, it tends to build an immunity against Ich. This is not a permanent state, but for some number of months it will be effective. This is why it is not uncommon when having an Ich outbreak in a tank, that some fish may not be infected while other fish are overwhelmed and some may actually die from this parasite.

Wang, Q., Yu, Y., Zhang, X. and Xu, Z., 2019. Immune responses of fish to Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (Ich): A model for understanding immunity against protozoan parasites. Developmental & Comparative Immunology, 93, pp.93-102.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145305X18304944

Abstract​

The parasitic ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (Ich), which infects almost all freshwater fish species, provides an optimal model for the study of immunity against extracellular protozoa. Ich invades the epithelia of mucosal tissues, forms white spots covering the whole body, and induces high mortality, while survivor fish develop both innate and adaptive immunity against Ich attack in systemic and mucosal tissues. Besides the protective roles of the Toll-like receptor (TLR)-mediated innate immune response, the critical immune functions of novel IgT in the skin, gut, gill, and olfactory organ of teleosts have been demonstrated in recent years, and all this information contributes to the ontogeny of the mucosal immune response in vertebrates. Especially in rainbow trout, Ich-infected fish exhibited higher IgT concentrations and titers in the mucosa and increased IgT+ B-lymphocyte proliferation in mucosal tissues. IgM mainly functions in the adaptive immune response in the systemic tissues of rainbow trout, accompanied with increased IgM+ B-lymphocyte proliferation in the head kidney of Ich-infected trout. However, little is known about the interaction between these mucosal tissues and systemic immune organs and the interaction between the inductive immune organs and functional immune organs. Immobilization antigens (Iags), located on the parasite cell and ciliary membranes, have been characterized to be targeted by specific antibodies produced in the host. The crosslinking of antigens mediated by antibodies triggers either an escape response or the immobilization of Ich. With more knowledge about the Iags of Ich and the immunity of teleosts, a more targeted vaccine, even a DNA vaccine, can be developed for the immune control strategy of Ich. Due to the high frequency of clinical fish ichthyophthiriasis, the study of fish immune responses to Ich provides an optimal experimental model for understanding immunity against extracellular protozoa.

My point here is that it is difficult to make blanket assumptions about a lot of what goes on in our tanks that we cannot see nor measure. So it is important to understand how and why things work in natural water bodies but may not work in quite the same way in a tank. One is a natural environment v.s. an artificial one.

Nature works to deal with a lot of things which also occur in tanks. But there is not nature in a tank to fix imbalances. That must be done by us. What we can see is how our fish and inverts etc. are faring. If they are healthy, if they grow and reproduce as expected and if they live as long, or more often longer, than they do in nature, we are doing things right. If our fish are not healthy, if we are consntatly battling imbalances and/or diseases etc. it is because we are failing and not because of how nature works.

The best we can do is to understand the processes and the chemistry and biology involved and then try to use that knowledge help us to make our tanks healthy for the inhabitants. But every tank is unuique in its chemistry, stocking, tap water parameters and then how we care for the tank. While nature tends to be self sustaining, this is not how things work in our tanks. In them we are "nature: to a great exetent.

To be effective we need some level of knowledge about the science involved. And then we do water changes in FW tanks. We repelenish what us used up and we remove what potentially harmful things are building up. The one thing I do know here is that my fish do not die because thw water is too clean (not pure but free or mostly free from harmful things). As long as the water contains what is needed and does not contain harnful things at levels that natter, out tanks should be funxtioning decently for the inhabitants to thrive.

I never understand why hobbyists are intrigued with the idea of not having to do water changes as often and/or of great enough volume to achieve the desired goals. After all, we are not keeping tanks like in a public aquarium or in aquaculture ponds where the volume of water is so massive that water changes are not a realistic otpion.

One last observation re plants and the removal of contaminents from water. I would suggest one visit Google Scholar and the ask it about: "heavy metal uptake potential aquatic plants" here is the sort of thing you will discover. Plants can clear a lof of nasty sruff from water that many would not have expected.

Rezania, S., Taib, S.M., Din, M.F.M., Dahalan, F.A. and Kamyab, H., 2016. Comprehensive review on phytotechnology: heavy metals removal by diverse aquatic plants species from wastewater. Journal of hazardous materials, 318, pp.587-599
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304389416306860

Abstract​

Environmental pollution specifically water pollution is alarming both in the developed and developing countries. Heavy metal contamination of water resources is a critical issue which adversely affects humans, plants and animals. Phytoremediation is a cost-effective remediation technology which able to treat heavy metal polluted sites. This environmental friendly method has been successfully implemented in constructed wetland (CWs) which is able to restore the aquatic biosystem naturally. Nowadays, many aquatic plant species are being investigated to determine their potential and effectiveness for phytoremediation application, especially high growth rate plants i.e. macrophytes. Based on the findings, phytofiltration (rhizofiltration) is the sole method which defined as heavy metals removal from water by aquatic plants. Due to specific morphology and higher growth rate, free-floating plants were more efficient to uptake heavy metals in comparison with submerged and emergent plants. In this review, the potential of wide range of aquatic plant species with main focus on four well known species (hyper-accumulators): Pistia stratiotes, Eicchornia spp., Lemna spp. and Salvinia spp. was investigated. Moreover, we discussed about the history, methods and future prospects in phytoremediation of heavy metals by aquatic plants comprehensively.

Plants etc. can even deal with radfioactiveity in water.

Vanhoudt, N., Vandenhove, H., Leys, N. and Janssen, P., 2018. Potential of higher plants, algae, and cyanobacteria for remediation of radioactively contaminated waters. Chemosphere, 207, pp.239-254.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653518308762

Abstract​

The potential of photosynthetic organisms to remediate radioactively contaminated water was evaluated for scenarios related to nuclear installations and included the following radionuclides............... An extensive literature review was undertaken leading to the creation of a database including more than 20,000 entries from over 100 references in which terrestrial and aquatic plants, macro- and microalgae, cyanobacteria and biosorbents derived from these organisms were used to clean water from these specific radionuclides or their stable isotopes.....................Finally, the most promising organisms and biosorbents were identified using a specifically developed selection procedure taking into account their performance and robustness. Ranking was done based on clear criteria with a distinct weight and scoring scheme. As such, 20 organisms/biosorbents were identified that showed high potential to clean waters contaminated with (mixtures of) radionuclides related to nuclear installations and which can be used for further experimental investigations.
 

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