Another Ich/whitespot Topic (i Think!)

[hayleyann]

Hi! I'm posting as I've read some other topics and there seems to be some good advice given here, which I am in dire need of right now!

I suspect our tetras may have ich/whitespot - this was only spotted a few hours ago. I'm mostly annoyed at myself as I checked them this morning and they were fine, we then bought and introduced 3 new fish to the tank, which seem to have settled in fine. Around an hour later I noticed all of our tetras have white spots. At first I thought it was sand, as we have white sand at the bottom of the tank.

We're completely new to keeping tropical fish, but we've followed advice in setting up the tank, we later introduced tetras after waiting for the tank to settle (the tetras were to help with the cycling of the tank, so we were told?), and now since everything seemed to be fine, a week on we introduced these 3 new fish earlier today. Since we've only had the tetras a week and they were the first fish we introduced, I guess they must have had it before they got to us. Our plants had not been kept with fish in the store.

2 of the Tetras have 2 spots each, 1 has 8 spots and 1 has 12. The spots aren't flat, they're raised. Also, they're on their bodies and not on their fins and tails. Now we're afraid it's whitespot, and that our new fish are now going to get it. I've tried to read as much as I can on Ich in the last couple of hours, but I wanted some practical advice as well.

Tank Capacity - 30L
Fish - 4 Neon Tetras, 1 Catfish, 1 Mickey Mouse Platy, 1 Small Betta
Temp - Currently 27.4c (I saw a lot of advice on Ich advising to raise temp?)

I'm not sure what the current Ph, Nitrate, etc. is yet, BIL is going to bring his testing kit tomorrow. However, it has been fine in the past week. Since we've only had fish in the tank a week, we haven't done a water change yet - in fact, we were planning on doing a 25-50% water change tomorrow as the first one.

We're heading to the pet shop tomorrow to buy some treatment.

Hopefully I've given enough information! Oh, I'm in the UK.

 

[LauraFrog]

Apologies in advance for the longwindedness of this post... there's a lot of info...

Following the advice of pet stores in setting up your first fish tank is, unfortunately, usually a waste of time. It sounds as though this tank was not cycled before you added fish. It's not your fault because nobody explained this to you, but it's extremely important knowledge so I'm going to explain it now. Sorry it's long.

The pet store mentioned cycling to you - they usually use the word (to shut up the experienced hobbyists who tell them they have a duty to explain it) but they don't explain the meaning or the process. So here is a brief overview of cycling:

Fish constantly produce ammonia. It is a byproduct of their breathing, their waste quickly decomposes into ammonia, and any uneaten food or rotting plant waste also becomes ammonia. There is no way to stop this from happening. Ammonia, even in tiny quantities (fractions of one part per million) is extremely toxic to fish. In low doses it stresses them, leaving them open to opportunistic diseases (like the ich - whitespot - it sounds like you have now). In higher doses it prevents their gills from working properly and can cause serious and permanent gill damage, or death. So you really, REALLY don't want ammonia in your tank.

The purpose of the filter is not to strain the gunk out of the water. This is only a small part of its role. The real job of the filter is to remove ammonia from the water. In a filter that is mature (or cycled), there are two species of bacteria growing on the media. One converts ammonia into nitrite, which is almost as toxic. Another converts nitrite into nitrate, which is for all intents and purposes not harmful to fish. These substances are all based on nitrogen (ammonia is NH3, nitrite is NO2 and nitrate is NO3) so this is known as the nitrogen cycle, hence 'cycling'.

In a new filter in a new tank, these bacteria are not present. Letting your tank run for a couple of days without fish in it does NOT - contrary to popular pet store myth - cycle it. There is nothing for them to feed on, so they don't grow. Adding a magic potion from a bottle does not cycle your tank either. The bacteria-in-a-bottle filter starters/biological supplements/instant cycle/whatever they're calling it this week is essentially useless. The bacteria cannot survive on a cold, dusty shelf for years with no food or oxygen. There are three exceptions, which I'll deal with later.


There are three ways to cycle a tank. The first is 'fishless cycling'. It's considered the best of the three methods, but it requires time (a month with no fish in the tank), it is more expensive and it requires a lot of water testing (so some understanding of chemistry.) This method involves adding ammonia from a bottle to the tank, so the bacteria have something to 'eat' and can multiply. It's probably not an option for you right now because you already have fish, and since they are sick, you can't return them.

The second is 'instant cycling'. This requires putting enough bacteria in the filter to handle all the waste produced by the current fish. You can do this by adding filter media from an established filter (a sponge or some bio ceramics) or by adding a supplement. The bacteria-in-a-bottle products are, as I said before, crap. However, the three that work are: Bactinettes (UK), Bio-spira (US) and Eco-start (Australia). Bactinettes are refrigerated. If you can get hold of them they apparently work quite well.

The third is fish in cycling, which is what you will have to do if you can't get cycled media or bactinettes. Basically this involves testing the ammonia and doing daily water changes to keep the ammonia below 0.25 parts per million at all times. At this level it does not cause longterm damage.


Here's what you should do:
1. Immediately do a 50-80% water change. This will dilute the ammonia in the water. Do this as soon as possible.
2. Get a water test kit. The API freshwater liquid master is good. You will need tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. Knowing the hardness is a bonus but not essential. Keep checking the ammonia twice a day. Any time it shows as more than 0.25ppm, do a 50% water change.
3. Read the topics on cycling - they are pinned in the New To The Hobby section and will give you a more thorough overview.
4. The tank is already fully, if not overstocked. DO NOT add any more fish. The betta (fighter) will not be comfortable permanently in that tank with the tetras, and the catfish is probably going to grow far too big for it. If you can get some photos of it, we can identify it and tell you how big it will get. We can help you with the stocking.
5. If you can get some photos it will help us a LOT to work out if this is ich. In the meantime, get an ich med, as it does sound like it. Ich looks like the fish is sprinkled in salt, so if you thought it looked like sand it's probably ich.
6. Once you get the water stats (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate) post them on here. We can help you with the cycle (and tell you how far along it is.)

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[hayleyann]

Thank you for taking the time to reply!

We were really relying on the pet shop to give us proper information and obviously they didn't I know now that we should have looked by cycling on the internet first! I'm a more than a bit annoyed at them - we would obviously have waited longer to have healthy fish! I hate to think that they're sick because of us.

We are heading to the pet shop right now to get a testing kit and Ich meds - 2 of the Tetras no longer have white spots, so I assume that this is the part where they drop off to the bottom and start multiplying?! The Tetras are still very active and eating, and it doesn't seem to be bothering them. They're also not rubbing themselves on anything, which is why I wasn't sure.

I have taken a few photos, and I'll upload ASAP, as soon as I get my card reader from work.

I'll also upload one of the Catfish - he looks quite big already TBH; I'll be doubly annoyed if it's one that grows to a large length, as we told them yesterday how big our tank was, how much fish we already had in it, and they still let us buy the extra fish. I can tell you now, I'm not going back to that Pet Shop again for fish

Thank you again for the advice, I'll keep you updated.

 

[hayleyann]

Right, Just come back from the Pet Shop with a whole host of things.

Amongst them I've bought Interpret Anti White Spot - it tells me to give one treatment, then another after 4 days - and then if it still hasn't cleared, another after 7 days... should I just give the meds every 4 days until it clears, or follow the instructions? The reason I ask is that one of the pages on Ich I found advised to ignore instructions and just give every 4 days until after the white spot has gone. We told them what happened with the White Spot and they gave us the treatment for free. We checked the tetras they have in stock now (they said we'd had a different batch) and they were awful! Some had eyes missing, fungus type patches, etc...

Another thing I've bought is an Ammonia Testing Kit - I'll go back next week to get testing kits for the other things after I get paid! I just thought Ammonia was the important one for now.

So now, I've just tested the Ammonia and it is very high - I'm glad I bought the test. It's between 0.50 - 1, which is frightening!

We're in the middle of doing a water change now (around 60%) and putting in the first Anti Spot Treatment. I have no idea how to take the carbon out of the filter - will it be OK if I leave it in?

Hopefully our fishies will be OK!

 

[hayleyann]

Sorry - just another quick update!

Just done our 2nd Ammonia test of the day now, and the first since the water change and it's down already to 0.25-0.50, which is a good start!

The tetras seem to be doing fine, the spots don't seem to be bothering them all that much. We'll be putting in the 2nd treatment on Thursday, so let's hope we've caught it before it gets too much out of hand.

I'm actually worried about our Platy more than the tetras at this point - we got him on Saturday and the salesgirl told us his fin had been nipped but should heal right up. I think it's something a bit more than that now - his top fin is nearly totally missing, but it doesn't look like finrot to me. I hope he can hold out until we've finished treating the whitespot.

 

[LauraFrog]

It sounds like the pet store has mucked you around a bit. It's a shame but it's not uncommon. The problem is that not many people with first aquariums are willing to go through a fishless cycle, and a lot of them don't want to hear how many fish actually fit in their tank. They want the tank bursting with fish, but don't want the work involved with maintaining a seriously overstocked tank. Pet stores are in the habit of telling them what they want to hear - if they do this, they often sell a tank, some equipment, a few batches of fish and some generic medications before the owners, having killed twenty or so fish, give up in disgust and find another hobby. If the stores give accurate information, some people decide they are too busy/unwilling to maintain a fish tank and don't buy one to start with. It's an attitude from pet stores that I really hate because personally I think the suffering they are causing to animals - even fish - is far more important than their profit margin. Still I'll stop ranting. I must say that giving you the med for free is remarkably good of them...

What sort of filter is in the tank? In a lot of smallish tanks like the one you have, there is a filter system that sucks water in through a filter box in the top of the tank, and then it falls back into the tank. Others have a filter that sticks onto the side of the tank by suction cups. Mostly these filters are easy to dismantle so they can be cleaned. Have a look through the filter and if you find anything in there that looks like black pebbles or pellets (if you rub it on your skin it will leave a mark which smudges easily) that is carbon. You really need to take it out as it will seriously reduce the effectiveness of the treatment. Carbon works by 'absorbing' chemicals in the water - it's a lifesaver when the water supply is contaminated or the water board is putting heavy metals etc. in the drinking water supply, but it removes the medication from the water.

The problem with medicating when the tank is not cycled is that you still need to try and do water changes while the medication is in the water, or the ammonia will keep rising and it will still kill the fish. If there is carbon in the filter it might be best to change as much of the water as possible because you don't know how much of the medication is still in there. Refill the tank and then re-medicate after removing the carbon. An 80-90% water change would also stop the ammonia from worrying you for a day or so, or it should. Whenever you do a water change to reduce the ammonia level, measure the new water and add more medication. Don't forget to dechlorinate the new water before you add it.

The catfish that you commonly buy for aquariums fall into two families, the Loricariidae and the Corydoradinae. The loricariids are usually called plecos or plecs - this is a shortening of the Latin name of one species (Plecostomus) but it's used for the whole family. They are flat and streamlined and often called 'sucker fish'. If you've been sold one of those, it's probably a bristlenose or a common plec. Bristlenoses grow to 10-15cm (4-6 inches, females are smaller hence the wide range) and can be kept in tanks of about 70-80 litres. Common plecs are usually about one foot long (30cm) but have been known to reach double this length. Obviously they require extremely big tanks.
The other sort of catfish are corydoradinae - corys. They sit more upright and viewed from the side their body is almost triangular. Their colours are usually white with markings but there is a popular albino strain and a grey speckled species. These will not get too big for your tank, although they prefer to be kept in groups of three or more.
Try google-imaging 'bristlenose catfish' and 'corydoras catfish' and seeing which it looks most like. If it's a bristlenose or one of the bigger plecs, you will probably have to rehome it if you don't want to get a bigger tank. If it's a cory you can keep it but you might want to consider getting more of them if possible.

It's hard to know what the platy has without seeing it. Is there a white or black line on the edge of the fin (where more fin should be but isn't), pinholes or missing bits out of the middle, or black spots on it? If there are, it's probably finrot. The medication for whitespot will help to slow the progress of the finrot and may cure it. It could also be that the tetras have nipped at the fin further. It's hard to know, but if the platy is behaving normally it should be okay. The really bad type of finrot (that actually kills the fish, and fast) usually appears on the tail first and the fish will be lethargic, refuse food and generally act sick.

When you get the nitrite test, tell us the reading. Any reading of nitrite at all will mean that the tank is beginning to cycle and is good news at this point.

Good luck!