another beneficial bacteria question, to ponder...

[Magnum Man]

so, is there enough beneficial bacteria in a typically cycled aquarium, to replace the main filter, or "sanitize" the filter, without effecting the water quality???

it's on every surface in your tank, right... so if your filter burned out, and you replaced it with everything new, not reusing any of the old media , do you think it would effect the water quality at all???

hypothetical question, as for me, I run multiple filters, and would typically reuse as much of my filter media as possible, just wondering if there is typically enough bacteria to do what is needed, in the rest of the tank, on a fully cycled tank???

 

[Magnum Man]

most of my community tanks are larger, when I said multiple filters, but I do have several 10 gallon tanks, fully cycled, that only have a sponge filter in them, assuming the results would be the same, if the only sponge filter were replaced with a new one, with the rest of the tank being fully cycled???

 

[MaloK]

It's guaranty to fall in another cycle.

While it''s true that they are everywhere in the tank... It's not really like that... They wont populate area in light, they love to have a strong water flow that brings loads of nutrient.

Stocked like your tanks are... completely sanitizing the only filter... I would even predict an epic crash.

I followed a couple discussions here about that... and I still maintain that there's a misconception on the subject.

In many setup with simple decor and clear sight, A lot more than half the total bacteria would be found in the filter

There's a very big difference of water flow between the interior of the filter and the substrate. The higher flow of oxygen will forcibly create a major part of the colony in the filter while the other in the tank will struggle a lot more since the nutrients are always brought a much higher pace to the filter.

 

[seangee]

It should not be an issue in a well planted tank. I have had an only filter die while on a 3 week holiday and never lost a single fish - although the tank was well overstocked (and under-filtered) if you believe sites like Aqadvisor.
Don't tell the BB police but I regularly rinse my media under the hot tap which is chlorinated. I never go all in and sanitise the filter. I also don't often replace the media,but recently I swapped out the sponge (which is the only media) in my Fluval Flex. I took the old one out and put a new one in - job done.
But I also don't flout danger. In my big tank I have 2 filters. The HOB gets rinsed weekly but when I clean the canister (a couple of times a year) I skip the HOB for that week.

 

[MaloK]

I'll agree on rinsing under the tap is not a problem.

 

[Magnum Man]

thanks guy's like I mentioned, a hypothetical discussion, and a couple varying opinions... a perfect start...

 

[MaloK]

Don't tell the BB police

Too late...

 

[Innesfan]

I'll agree on rinsing under the tap is not a problem.

This is news to me. I've always rinsed in a bucket of aquarium water. Do we know why it isn't a problem to rinse under tap?

 

[MaloK]

This is news to me. I've always rinsed in a bucket of aquarium water. Do we know why it isn't a problem to rinse under tap?

Well, I do it often and the exposition is never prolonged enough to have any impact that I could notice. My tap water contains enough Chlorine and Chloramine that it smells.

I match grossly the temperature of the tank and I rinse quickly under the tap, then immediately return it in tank water. Never had any problems doing it.

I have all small tanks and many times it requires more water than they contain to clean the filters. So cheating like that saves a lot of time.

Edit: I do that only with sponges, I wouldn't risk biomedia like ceramic etc...

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Where the bacteria is inone's tank is only part of the considerations. The presence and mass of live plants also matters. And at this point there are more factors at work.

-The plants do not want ammonia (NH3) they want ammonium (NH4). The NH4 is way less toxic than the NH3.
- How much of any total ammonia reading is in each form depends upon two factors. The most important in pH and temp is second.
- The higher the pH and temp. the more of the total ammonia that will be in the NH3 forms.
- In a tank with a pH of 6.0 and a temp of 86F and a total ammonia reading of 5 ppm (API test), the NH3 level is 0.0043 ppm. But, the NH4 at 4.9957ppm will be doing harm, just in a different way.
-In a tank with a pH of 8.0 and a temp. of 76F and a total ammonia reading of 1.0 ppm (API test), the NH# level is 0.0526 ppm and that is over my red line of 0.05ppm, But, the NH4 at .9474 would be PK for fish for some time. Long enough for the bacteria to reproduce and handle it in 1-2 days.
-How fast the bacteria can double matters as well. Under optimal condition the ammonia ones can double inabout 8 hours but the ones for nitrite need more like 12-14.
-When live plants are present any ammonia, as NH40 they use will not result in nitrite or nitrate. The plants can use nitrate and will do so if the bacteria are producing it. Often nitrate is the form of nitrigen in the plant ferts we add will contain since one doesn't want to add ammonia a tank wit fish etc.
-Algae also consumes ammonia.

There are a few more considerations involved when trying to assess what might happen in terms of the cycle in any given set-up. Higher levels of NH3 can harm plants. When the total ammonia is basically all NH4, the bacteria can still use it, but they will do so with much less efficiency. A bare bottom tank loses the ability of the bacteria to colonize the substrate.

The point is there is no simple answer as any answer depends on multiple factors to assess how the removal or addition of bacteria and/or plants will affect the cycle. I do this by having massive amounts of media (usually Poret foam) with good flow through it. Then I vacuum the substrate deeper than I norrmal do in tanks with plants and.or less media volume. If I remove some of the bacteria in the substrate that will leave more of the ammonia for the bacteria. What is in the filter will be stimulated to reproduce faster as will what remains in the substrate.

The process of deeper vacuuming also rearranges the substrrate some. With no plant rrots present, there is normally mot enough oxtgen to support the bacteria as one approches 1 inch of depth. My deep vac. will cause two theings. Some of the sunstrate where there is bacteria will end up deeper and not have enough O, ANd some ot the substrate already too deep to have the needed O will be in the more aerobic zone. This means the functioning bacteria in the substrate will decreased. But what is in the media will not. That results in this bacteria incrasing by more than what remains active in th turned over substrate.

What the above means is my activity has dome what appears to be a migration of some of the bacteria from the substrate to the media. What actually happened is I deactivated some of it in the substrate and encouraged what is in the media to reproduce in order to hanle what the substrate cannot. I am not talking about huge ammounts of bacteria, But, over time what I am doing is trying to have more of te bacteria in the media than would be the case if I did not deep vacuum almost weekly.

It is also important to understand that we can nevver know exactly how much of the bacteria is in what loacarions. What we can know is if we can test for ammonia etc. andknow if it is prexent or not in amounts that matter (i.e. our test kits read 0).





Btw, in some of my tanks where there are no live plants I work to induce more of the bacteria to be in the filter media than in the substrate

 

[Magnum Man]

I always rinse my sponges in my tap well water, with no chlorine, run under cold water...

 

[seangee]

This is news to me. I've always rinsed in a bucket of aquarium water. Do we know why it isn't a problem to rinse under tap?

I did wonder if I should put disclaimers on my post in case an inexperienced fish keeper with a new tank and a single anubias in the corner reads it...
I don't think that BB is as sensitive as some believe. In a mature tank a 50% die off of what is on the filter material will not be a problem because there is plenty elsewhere and the population should recover within a day or two.
That being said my tanks are all acidic which means I will always get more ammonium than ammonia. I do rely on the plants to deal with this. So much so that I have wondered if my filters are cycled at all in the traditional sense.
A few years ago I set up a new tank and moved the filter from an established tank into the new one and put the brand new one into the old tank. I wanted to do a fishless cycle as detailed on this site. The ammonia I added did not drop at all after 3 days. AT this point I got impatient and threw a bucket of frogbit and water sprite into the tank so I could add fish
Since I was testing the new tank daily I also tested the old tank - not even a blip in ammonia/ammonium or nitrite. My (unscientific) conclusion was that BB already don't thrive in acidic environments and they were probably getting insufficient "food" so I only had very little. In any event I was far more concerned recently when I ripped out my jungle to re-plant than I would have been if I bleached the filter. And I did this in sections, making sure each section was actively growing before moving on to the next.

 

[MaloK]

In my opinion, the filter offers a 1000 times more suitable environment for BB's than anything else you could put in a tank... Besides a good old UGF.

 

[MaloK]

Sorry for spamming the thread...

Just a remark that, since the thread is about Bacteria... I'm leaving out any other factors that influence nitrogen cycle...

I think about a piranha tank without plants one inch of gravel and only bare decor. In a setup like that 99% of the cycle will be done by bacteria in the filter.

On the other hand a super planted tank that the plants have overwhelmed the nutrient spectre all the way, could result in the complete opposite, with 99% of the nitrogen processed in the tank by the plants.

Since both bacterial and vegetable compete for the same source of food, any decline in one promotes the other.

A normal planted tank will start with an important quantity of bacteria and when plants starts to take their toll, bacteria colony will adjust nearly by the hour.

When cycling a tank some prefer to kick them off with plants others with bacteria.

But both will always end working hand-in-hand.