Angels Or Discus?

[tenke56]

I have decided that I want to get either some angels or discus for my tank. I have a 55 gallon tank (48 inches long x 12.5 inches wide x 21 inches high). In it, I have the following fish:
3 Leopard Danio's (going to get rid of)
2 Clown Loaches (adding 2-3 more for their shoal)
2 Dwarf Honey Gourami's
1 Bristle Nose Pleco
1 Albino Cory (adding 1-2 more)
1 Emerald Cory (adding 1-2 more)

1x HOB Bio System Power Filter & Oxy Surface Skimmer
It is rated for up to 75 gallons and has a surface skimmer as well.
1x Air Pump with a sponge filter
1x Maxi-Jet 1200 Powerhead.
1x 65 gallon heater
Eco-Complete Substrate
8 medium - large plastic plants
1 cave area (Loaches seem to have claimed it as they hide in there all the time except for at night)
4 lbs. of African Driftwood.

My water parameters are all very good(Nitrite, Nitrate, and Ammonia at or nearly 0), except for my pH. I am still having to bring it down from 8.0+. I used some Proper pH 7.0 to try and get it lower but I do not want to have to do that all the time so I am just going to work with it to get it down lower. I also have about 4 lbs. of African Driftwood in it as well. I also do weekly 15-20% water changes. I also have 2 other tanks that are used for spare/emergency tanks. They are a 20g and 30g with the proper HOB filters for them.

I know that Discus are more work than Angels are. I know that Angels tend to be easier to care for and breed than Discus. I would like to breed either of them if it happens but if not, its fine. Would I be able to fit 2-4 Angels or Discus in my current setup and also, what type of decorations would be needed for breeding or just a comfort setting?

Thanks in advance!

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

I have decided that I want to get either some angels or discus for my tank. I have a 55 gallon tank (48 inches long x 12.5 inches wide x 21 inches high). In it, I have the following fish:
3 Leopard Danio's (going to get rid of)
2 Clown Loaches (adding 2-3 more for their shoal)
2 Dwarf Honey Gourami's
1 Bristle Nose Pleco
1 Albino Cory (adding 1-2 more)
1 Emerald Cory (adding 1-2 more)

1x HOB Bio System Power Filter & Oxy Surface Skimmer
It is rated for up to 75 gallons and has a surface skimmer as well.
1x Air Pump with a sponge filter
1x Maxi-Jet 1200 Powerhead.
1x 65 gallon heater
Eco-Complete Substrate
8 medium - large plastic plants
1 cave area (Loaches seem to have claimed it as they hide in there all the time except for at night)
4 lbs. of African Driftwood.

My water parameters are all very good(Nitrite, Nitrate, and Ammonia at or nearly 0), except for my pH. I am still having to bring it down from 8.0+. I used some Proper pH 7.0 to try and get it lower but I do not want to have to do that all the time so I am just going to work with it to get it down lower. I also have about 4 lbs. of African Driftwood in it as well. I also do weekly 15-20% water changes. I also have 2 other tanks that are used for spare/emergency tanks. They are a 20g and 30g with the proper HOB filters for them.

I know that Discus are more work than Angels are. I know that Angels tend to be easier to care for and breed than Discus. I would like to breed either of them if it happens but if not, its fine. Would I be able to fit 2-4 Angels or Discus in my current setup and also, what type of decorations would be needed for breeding or just a comfort setting?

Thanks in advance!

First off, the Clown Loaches may not be a good idea for the tank. They are very active (possible too active for being around Discus) not only that, they need a bigger tank.

Your water stats are also a little alarming. A Ph of 8+ is terrible for Discus. Buffering the water is always risky. If you put the wrong amount of chemicals in or measure incorrectly you could end up with a tank full of dead fish. A better route to go would be the more pricey R/O unit. Many people these to lower Ph. Simply mix R/O water with normal tap water and get a desired Ph.

As long as Ammonia and Nitrite are the stats at 0, then that should be okay.

If you get Discus, you are going to need to change the water more often. If they are juvenile, you are looking at daily water changes. Feeding at least 3 times daily. The tank should also be bare-bottom as these are easier to clean. If they are adults, you should be doing a water change at least twice a week, in an either bare or substrate bottom and feeding at least twice a day.

If you want Discus, I suggest asking more questions, and doing a lot more research.

 

[tenke56]

First off, the Clown Loaches may not be a good idea for the tank. They are very active (possible too active for being around Discus) not only that, they need a bigger tank.

Your water stats are also a little alarming. A Ph of 8+ is terrible for Discus. Buffering the water is always risky. If you put the wrong amount of chemicals in or measure incorrectly you could end up with a tank full of dead fish. A better route to go would be the more pricey R/O unit. Many people these to lower Ph. Simply mix R/O water with normal tap water and get a desired Ph.

As long as Ammonia and Nitrite are the stats at 0, then that should be okay.

If you get Discus, you are going to need to change the water more often. If they are juvenile, you are looking at daily water changes. Feeding at least 3 times daily. The tank should also be bare-bottom as these are easier to clean. If they are adults, you should be doing a water change at least twice a week, in an either bare or substrate bottom and feeding at least twice a day.

If you want Discus, I suggest asking more questions, and doing a lot more research.

Thank you for the info DiscusLova. I don't think that I want to do daily water changes with the discus but if I end up getting them, I would have to. I do realize that my pH level is something to be concerned with. I am not going to use chemicals again to lower any levels. I don't think that at this time I could justify spending the money on a RO system, that and if I bought one, I would have to also bring home a nice piece of jewelry that was double the cost of it for her . Anyways, so Angels it is. Now I just need to find out some information:

1. What water parameters do they require?
2. How many can I keep in my tank with my current setup?
3. How many can I keep if I made the stocking changes?
4. Breeding - What can I use to keep any fry from getting sucked up in my filter (linked above)?
5. Is a 20g breeding tank big enough for a pair + fry?
6. Any tips besides RO systems on how to lower my pH level?
7. I have read the information listed here and any other links to information and reading material to research the fish properly before I make the commitment to the fish. I do not plan on going out this weekend to get the fish. I want to spend the right amout of time first.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

First off, the Clown Loaches may not be a good idea for the tank. They are very active (possible too active for being around Discus) not only that, they need a bigger tank.

Your water stats are also a little alarming. A Ph of 8+ is terrible for Discus. Buffering the water is always risky. If you put the wrong amount of chemicals in or measure incorrectly you could end up with a tank full of dead fish. A better route to go would be the more pricey R/O unit. Many people these to lower Ph. Simply mix R/O water with normal tap water and get a desired Ph.

As long as Ammonia and Nitrite are the stats at 0, then that should be okay.

If you get Discus, you are going to need to change the water more often. If they are juvenile, you are looking at daily water changes. Feeding at least 3 times daily. The tank should also be bare-bottom as these are easier to clean. If they are adults, you should be doing a water change at least twice a week, in an either bare or substrate bottom and feeding at least twice a day.

If you want Discus, I suggest asking more questions, and doing a lot more research.

Thank you for the info DiscusLova. I don't think that I want to do daily water changes with the discus but if I end up getting them, I would have to. I do realize that my pH level is something to be concerned with. I am not going to use chemicals again to lower any levels. I don't think that at this time I could justify spending the money on a RO system, that and if I bought one, I would have to also bring home a nice piece of jewelry that was double the cost of it for her . Anyways, so Angels it is. Now I just need to find out some information:

1. What water parameters do they require?
2. How many can I keep in my tank with my current setup?
3. How many can I keep if I made the stocking changes?
4. Breeding - What can I use to keep any fry from getting sucked up in my filter (linked above)?
5. Is a 20g breeding tank big enough for a pair + fry?
6. Any tips besides RO systems on how to lower my pH level?
7. I have read the information listed here and any other links to information and reading material to research the fish properly before I make the commitment to the fish. I do not plan on going out this weekend to get the fish. I want to spend the right amout of time first.

Sounds like you have made a good choice in Angels, they are better suited for your water parameters.

1. Ammonia, and Nitrite have to be zero as any other fish, Nitrates below 50, but ideally below 25.
Ph anywhere from I would say 6.5-7.5 is an ideal range. Water shouldn't be too hard either.

2. I would say a maximum of 4 or 5 would be a good number. If you get a pair they may have to be removed.

3. Again, as territorial Cichlids that bicker with each other, 4 or 5 would still be the limit.

4. To save fry simply attach some mesh around the filter intake and attach it securely with a few rubber bands.

5. A 20g breeder should be okay, but the fry probably won't be able to stay with the parents for long. Angels are notorious fry eaters. These guys will also eventually need a big grow out tank depending on the amount of fry you get.

6. C02 injection can help, it is also great for live plants. Tannins will also do the trick. Peat moss and Driftwood will help with the tannins.

7. Might I say you are doing a great job researching your fish. Keep up with it! If you have any questions feel free to post them! We have a big Angelfish breeder on the board that should be able to answer anything, and everything you are questioning about!

 

[tenke56]

Sounds like you have made a good choice in Angels, they are better suited for your water parameters.

1. Ammonia, and Nitrite have to be zero as any other fish, Nitrates below 50, but ideally below 25.
Ph anywhere from I would say 6.5-7.5 is an ideal range. Water shouldn't be too hard either.

2. I would say a maximum of 4 or 5 would be a good number. If you get a pair they may have to be removed.

3. Again, as territorial Cichlids that bicker with each other, 4 or 5 would still be the limit.

4. To save fry simply attach some mesh around the filter intake and attach it securely with a few rubber bands.

5. A 20g breeder should be okay, but the fry probably won't be able to stay with the parents for long. Angels are notorious fry eaters. These guys will also eventually need a big grow out tank depending on the amount of fry you get.

6. C02 injection can help, it is also great for live plants. Tannins will also do the trick. Peat moss and Driftwood will help with the tannins.

7. Might I say you are doing a great job researching your fish. Keep up with it! If you have any questions feel free to post them! We have a big Angelfish breeder on the board that should be able to answer anything, and everything you are questioning about!

How can I test to see how hard my water is? I have the Freshwater Master Test Kit from API. Is there anything else I need to get to do the test?

So if I put more cory's and loaches in my tank then got some angels, I would be fine and not over stocking? I always tended to have too few fish as I didn't really know if the 1" per gallon rule worked or not and as I have only had smaller tropical fish, I do not know how it works with Angel Fish.

For the mesh, do you mean something like this or do you mean something like the sponge that goes in the filters?

I have no live plants in my system and I was always leery about a CO2 system as I didn't know much about it. I have the driftwood covered, or part of it if 4 lbs is not enough for my tank. When I first got the wood, I let it soak in a bucket for about 2 weeks to get the tannins out. Do you suggest keeping the tannins in the tank to help lower the pH even more? Does Peat moss help lower the pH or just take out the tannins?

Decorations:

If I was to get live plants, what ones are the easiest to care for and are liked by my current inhabitants and the angels? What would be a good beginner CO2 system to look at?

Also, do Angels need a cave to hide in or do they just swim into a corner? I know that there are some spawning caves that chilids use to lay their eggs in. I currently have 1 cave that is in use by my loaches.

*Almost forgot* What temperature do they require?

 

[ALEXF]

That 1" Rule, is only a guideline. pretty much if you follow it with smaller fish, it keeps you from over stocking. As discuslova said the loaches arent a good idea as they are to active. If your worried about the inch rule with angels... add on an additional 2, i actually intitally counted my as 12 inches just to make sure i gave myself some playing space. The mesh he is refering to is like a stocking or nylons that women wear. something to use as a fine screen to keep little things like fry from getting sucked up. as far as breeding i have no idea on the rest. Good luck.

 

[tenke56]

Thanks for the clarification Alexf. It makes sense to use stockings for it. Is it recommended to get rid of my loaches or just keep my 2 and not get anymore? My loach and cory's are whats left of my origional tank over 2 years ago so I am somewhat attached to them.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Sounds like you have made a good choice in Angels, they are better suited for your water parameters.

1. Ammonia, and Nitrite have to be zero as any other fish, Nitrates below 50, but ideally below 25.
Ph anywhere from I would say 6.5-7.5 is an ideal range. Water shouldn't be too hard either.

2. I would say a maximum of 4 or 5 would be a good number. If you get a pair they may have to be removed.

3. Again, as territorial Cichlids that bicker with each other, 4 or 5 would still be the limit.

4. To save fry simply attach some mesh around the filter intake and attach it securely with a few rubber bands.

5. A 20g breeder should be okay, but the fry probably won't be able to stay with the parents for long. Angels are notorious fry eaters. These guys will also eventually need a big grow out tank depending on the amount of fry you get.

6. C02 injection can help, it is also great for live plants. Tannins will also do the trick. Peat moss and Driftwood will help with the tannins.

7. Might I say you are doing a great job researching your fish. Keep up with it! If you have any questions feel free to post them! We have a big Angelfish breeder on the board that should be able to answer anything, and everything you are questioning about!

How can I test to see how hard my water is? I have the Freshwater Master Test Kit from API. Is there anything else I need to get to do the test?

So if I put more cory's and loaches in my tank then got some angels, I would be fine and not over stocking? I always tended to have too few fish as I didn't really know if the 1" per gallon rule worked or not and as I have only had smaller tropical fish, I do not know how it works with Angel Fish.

For the mesh, do you mean something like this or do you mean something like the sponge that goes in the filters?

I have no live plants in my system and I was always leery about a CO2 system as I didn't know much about it. I have the driftwood covered, or part of it if 4 lbs is not enough for my tank. When I first got the wood, I let it soak in a bucket for about 2 weeks to get the tannins out. Do you suggest keeping the tannins in the tank to help lower the pH even more? Does Peat moss help lower the pH or just take out the tannins?

Decorations:

If I was to get live plants, what ones are the easiest to care for and are liked by my current inhabitants and the angels? What would be a good beginner CO2 system to look at?

Also, do Angels need a cave to hide in or do they just swim into a corner? I know that there are some spawning caves that chilids use to lay their eggs in. I currently have 1 cave that is in use by my loaches.

*Almost forgot* What temperature do they require?

For hardness you will probably need to get a test that has Gh/Kh. I am not sure exactly what the master combination comes with.

Unfortunately I couldn't open the link to the website, but any mesh will do the trick, just plastic screen. You may need to wrap two layers around the filter depending on how big the holes in it are.

DIY C02 systems are easy, C02 injection systems can get pretty complicated if you ask me. DIY CO2 systems have a reaction chamber (a plastic canister where sugar and yeast react to create CO2) that is attached to a tube and a diffuser. You can create your own or buy them. Either way works fine. To answer your plant question, I know that Anubias, Java fern/moss, Crypt and Aponogeton are just a few examples of some plants that are easy to take care of and do fine in low level light (depending on your WPG.) The plant section of the forum may offer better help then me on this matter.

Tannins are actually what make the ph drop, so the darker the water the better. Peat Moss releases a lot of Tannin, so this is good to use. Remember, both drift wood and peat will stop producing tannins after a while.

Angels do not need spawning caves. If they are going to spawn, they will choose a vertical obstacles, like plants, heaters, etc. This is due to the shape of the angel.


Keep the temperature at anywhere from 78-80 degrees.


Your stocking seems okay, but those Loaches should go. Remember keep up with water changes (25-30% weekly.)

 

[ALEXF]

i understand sentimental value but i definately wouldnt get anymore.

 

[Tolak]

I agree with the 4-5 angels if you want to try to keep that amount permanently. If you are looking to get a breeding pair you could bump that number up to 6-8, and keep the pair in the 20 gallon. A 20 will work for a pair, as long as it has at least 16" of water depth. This means no substrate in a standard 20 high. Once you get a pair move them to the 20, if you see any aggression between the other angels, which probably will happen, sell them back to the lfs. If you end up with two pairs, keep the best pair, unless you want to add a lot more tank space for breeding. There are tricks involving decorations to keeping two pairs in a 55.

Sometimes angels are decent parents, usually not. In this case you will need a separate hatching tank, anything up to a 10 gallon will work. You will also need at least a second 55 for growing out the fry, a small spawn will give you 200 fish, which need 1/2 gallon each to reach dime body size while still maintaining good water quality. In any case you will need to build a brine shrimp hatchery, the fry need live micro food the first 2-3 week minimum.

I would not add to the loachs, while they will grow quite large they are relatively slow growing. Angels like it warmer, minimum of 80F, 82-84 is better. Keep a close eye on the cats at these temperatures.

Keep an eye on the gouramis as well, they may get nippy, or get nipped in a pairing situation.

 

[LosC519]

I believe your pH can give you a rough idea of how hard your water is. If your pH is high then your water is hard.

 

[tenke56]

My pH from my tap is 6.8 so I do not know why it is 8.0+ in my tank. I will not add to my loaches and seeing how they rarely come out, except for to feed or when I move their cave to clean, I do not see them as being a problem. My cory's has loved in 80+ temperatures since I origionally had molly's in my first tank. I will watch them when it does get higher. Right now, I have a 20g and a 30g for spare tanks. I do not know the exact demensions of them so I can not say that they would make for a good breeding tank or not. The only problem with having the 2 spare tanks is trying to get a stand that will accomodate them both and not take up a bunch of room as my computer room (3rd bedroom) is the place where I house the fish. With my computer and my wifes desk in the room, it does not give me a bunch of room to work with. I will have to think of something when it comes time to get them. What I might end up doing is getting another 55g and using the 30 as the breeding tank. Also, since cory's might have a problem with the higher temperatures, should I look at other fish to use as cleaners?

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

My pH from my tap is 6.8 so I do not know why it is 8.0+ in my tank. I will not add to my loaches and seeing how they rarely come out, except for to feed or when I move their cave to clean, I do not see them as being a problem. My cory's has loved in 80+ temperatures since I origionally had molly's in my first tank. I will watch them when it does get higher. Right now, I have a 20g and a 30g for spare tanks. I do not know the exact demensions of them so I can not say that they would make for a good breeding tank or not. The only problem with having the 2 spare tanks is trying to get a stand that will accomodate them both and not take up a bunch of room as my computer room (3rd bedroom) is the place where I house the fish. With my computer and my wifes desk in the room, it does not give me a bunch of room to work with. I will have to think of something when it comes time to get them. What I might end up doing is getting another 55g and using the 30 as the breeding tank. Also, since cory's might have a problem with the higher temperatures, should I look at other fish to use as cleaners?

Some Cory can handle the temperature better then others. What kind are they? The only reason I can think of for the Ph being a lot higher in your tank is if you are using some kind of gravel that is buffering the Ph...

 

[tenke56]

I have 1 Albino Cory and 1 Emerald Cory. As far as the substrate that I am using, it is called Eco-Complete Plant Substrate. I got it with the intention of getting plants later on.

 

[LosC519]

Some kind of stone or rock deco can be raising your pH. Limestone does this.