Angels - Group In 70 Gallon

[chrismr]

Ok, so instead of getting the dwarf cichlid I wnated (availability was a nightmare) I decided to go with some angels. I got a group of 4 in my 70 gallon. I was thinking of maybe making it a group of 6, but not sure how practical this might be.

If I land up with more than one pair, would the tank be sufficiently large for them to all get along if there were 6?

It is a juwel delta corner tank.

Edit: obviously, I would be hoping to keep all even after pairs formed.

 

[AmberC]

Well IMO 4 is not a good number. I would definitely bump it up. 6 would be ok. Angels (like all other cichlids) are very aggressive when they are spawning. You'd be better off having more in there if two pair off. It would spread the aggression around instead of two getting beat up on all the time. Plus, like discus, they do better in larger numbers.
HTH

Amber

 

[chrismr]

Thanks for reply.

Like I said, would like to go up to 6...

Is it the general concensus that they like to be in groups? I keep thinking that if they tend to get territorial, then surely they dont like groups that much?

It is very hard to find information on the net relating to peoples experience keeping several in larger tank, when there is a spawning pair. I realise there will be some aggression, but how much?

I did read somewhere that though they get territorial when spawning, it hardly ends up with fish actually being hurt (mostly they are jsut chased away)

 

[AmberC]

Nothing to do with concensus. Its a proven fact that they are a schoaling fish, just like discus. They like to be in groups. The fewer fish you have, the more aggression you will have. If you just type in the scientific name of angels (Pterophyllum) then you will find a lot of information about them on the net. Cichlids are aggressive fish, no matter which kind you get. There are some that are more aggressive than others. Angels are considered Semi-aggressive. The bigger the group you have... the more spead around the aggression will be. If you have only 3-4, generally they will single out one and just beat him up. And if you end up with a pair, they will beat up any other fish in the tank... but if you have MORE.. that aggression cannot be directed to only one or two others.. They are strong in a pack. Does that make sense to you?

HTH
Amber

 

[chrismr]

I do know what cichlids can be like with regards to aggression

I was just trying to confirm the schooling aspect of their nature. I have done a search on google using the scientific name and have read much information on them. But there really are not very many sites that specifically say they are a schooling fish. I am not arguing with you and am convinced they are schooling fish.

Just that apart from these and discus, there are not many schooling cichlids... so just wanted confirmation.

Still no luck finding info on peoples experience on having more than one breeding pair in one tank though. Was just wanting others experience on the matter.

I will get a couple more some time soon

 

[Tolak]

I just answered a similar question for someone else, so I did a quick copy & paste because I'm feeling lazy after working all day;

Angels require a minimum of 18" in tank height, and 10 gallons per fish, at least that is what you will hear from folks here on TFF. Most of those people have a small quantity of angels. Small meaning 10 or less. There are ways around this, overfilter, and large water changes. You could easily keep angels to full size in a larger tank with a stocking rate of 5 gallons per fish, I do it, other breeders do it. I was just at another breeders place yesterday, he had at least a dozen huge marble angels in a 55 gallon tank, all around 2 to 3 years old, some of the nicest angels I've ever seen, they are his future breeders & show fish.

I have a 65 gallon set up as a show tank in my living room with 7 angels, 2 pairs & 3 unpaired fish. I had to switch out a couple of pairs & individual fish to find a compatable mix, but it is all good for the last 1 1/2 years. This would be a fully stocked tank by the 10 gallons per fish rule, and it took some time to work out compatable fish;

http/img158.imageshack.us/img158/8877/dsc006905xg.jpg


I also have a couple of 55's, one has 3 pairs that I know of, and around 12 other unpaired fish. This tank has no compatability issues, there are enough fish in there that any aggression gets spread out among the other fish, none are singled out, very similar to the way africans are stocked;

http/img354.imageshack.us/img354/736/dsc009325528cx.jpg

So from my experiences, as well as those of other breeders, some overstocking is to your benefit as far as aggression with pairs goes. The only reason the first tank is stocked what would be considered by many as normally is that it is in the living room with white carpeting, making frequent water changes a pain. 50% every other week is fine for that tank. The other tanks are in the basement fishroom, with a concrete floor. If water gets on the floor it doesn't bother anyone but me, who has a little mop work to do. If it gets way out of hand, the floor drain takes care of it. The second tank gets 80% changed weekly, and you can see some of the tacky homemade filters. They get the job done cheap.

Sometimes pairs will switch partners on their own, but not too often. You can switch partners with pairs yourself, but you have to watch for any aggression issues. Even pairs that form on their own can get aggressive towards their partner, calling for a little "time out" between spawns. The worst case is when you have 3 angels, 2 form a pair, and the third gets double teamed. I had this happen in the 65 with 3 blacks, they didn't mind the other angels, but singled out the third black. 2/3 of the fins missing in a day. Thay angel went in a 20 long, a totally unsuitable tank at 12" tall, and healed up beautifully. He's now a huge male paired with another black, giving nice spawns.

So if you do add 8 angels, you stand a good chance of doing ok, if you have the room for 10, go for it. Any compatability issues will be spread out more, and if you do have a fish that is singled out you can put them in your existing smaller tank to heal up, then trade it in. I have yet to see a non-corporate fish store that refuses to take in larger angels. Add plenty of plants for hiding, as this gives any unpaired angels someplace to hide, and also acts as sort of a natural divider, pairs will usually find a corner they can easily defend to spawn, and they key their territory off of objects in the tank. Keep a divider handy just in case, anyone dealing with cichlids should have one, as cichlids can get aggressive for no apparent reason.

 

[AmberC]

I do know what cichlids can be like with regards to aggression

I was just trying to confirm the schooling aspect of their nature. I have done a search on google using the scientific name and have read much information on them. But there really are not very many sites that specifically say they are a schooling fish. I am not arguing with you and am convinced they are schooling fish.

Just that apart from these and discus, there are not many schooling cichlids... so just wanted confirmation.

Still no luck finding info on peoples experience on having more than one breeding pair in one tank though. Was just wanting others experience on the matter.

I will get a couple more some time soon

No.. they are not a "schooling" fish.. they are a "schoaling" fish. Theres a difference. Schooling fish like to go the same way at the same time and always stay together. Schoaling fish like to be in groups, but each fish is very independant from the other. KWIM?
HTH
Amber

 

[chrismr]

Perfect Tolak. Just the sort of info I was looking for - I suppose I really should browse though old posts, but I usually seem to find my particular questions are never clearly answered if I do that. In this case they would have been, so thanks