Angels Acting Weird

[Sesshis_grl]

Hello all

I'm reposting this here because I think its moving from an illness question to a behavioral issue


As stated before I think, I have 4 angels. 3 were junvilles, and one that was already "mature". Now all are a decent size but gave no indecation of pairing up now however I'm having aggression issues with my black one. He will leave my big one completely alone, but chase my striped one mercilessly. He'll stop for a bit, see him, they both flare up, and then he pecks and chases. He does this with my yellow one too but "she" (don't know genders of any) won't run away. She just sits there as he pecks her under the mouth, around the gills. Then he won't really touch her or the other one for a long while and swims with them, but will again go and chase the striped one. Wth is going on? They have never acted like this...except when they were first added, but the aggression went away with moving the ornaments around and stopped completely. I've tried rearranging things the past 2 weeks to elliminate territories but its not working like it in the past. Are they all sexually mature now and thats why they are fighting? Are they trying to pair up? I have no idea what cichlids do when they are trying to pair up. I also don't know if this is just a dominance thing because he seems to be fine with the other two for the most part, is the other one a male and he's trying to isolate him? No clue and I'm getting worried because although there is no wounds as of yet, I don't want anything happening

Any help would really be appreciated thanks


Update:: I'm 90% sure my angel that is just sitting there while getting pecked has a female breeding tube. The other two might have something there..but not really sure

 

[KittyKat]

Black angels are well known to be more aggressive than any other colour morph.

What is the aquarium size (dimensions), layout and stock?

 

[karin]

Yep that is breeding behavior. The pair will peck at the throat area and mine do the exact same thing with the female tolerating the pecking and doing much less of it back to the male. The male spends more time chasing the other fish. If I had another angel, I'm sure he would be very aggressive and I thought I had mellow angels.

You do not say how big the tank is. I have a 60 gallon and I would not put more angels in there other than the pair I have. I feel they need a lot of room due to breeding agression. And my pair spawn every 3 weeks or so and then the bristlenose has a caviar feast and it starts all over again. You may be forced to find new homes for the non-pairing angels.

 

[Sesshis_grl]

It's just so weird because I've had "him" for 4 months? and he has always been very easy going, shy, completely nonaggressive. And now hes doing all this and my boyfriend claims he was pecking at my smaller pleco but I've yet to see this.

Tank is a 29 gallon

rough dimensions

29 x 18 x 12 think i did that right, all inches
length x height x width

Tank mates include: 2 kuhlis (thinking about adding 4 more), a weather dojo, 2 plecos (might be getting rid of 1, and yes I already know how big they get ), and then my 4 angels

They have all been perfect for the 4-5 months that I've them ..I really don't know what has made my black one act this way

Layout not really sure what you mean by that...I have fake plants, pretty tall. Driftwood and 2 ornaments are in there, all of which provide some kind of hang out or hiding place for someone. They've all kinda claimed their own places . Have gravel in this one..and other than filter and heater nothing else is in there

it sounds like you are leaning towards more of a territory issue instead of a breeding issue?

 

[KittyKat]

Your tank is way too small for Angels, let alone 4. Yes, fish do become more aggressive with age. You will either need to get a tank which is at least 40" long × 18" tall × 15" wide, although I would still recommend something much bigger and another two Angels, or you need to get rid of the Angels.

If you leave them as they are, you will get to a point where 2 or 3 of the Angels will be killed.

 

[Sesshis_grl]

Karin

That is very exciting and scary to hear at the same time I originally got 4 to try and breed but when they weren't pairing up kinda forgot about it. So if the black one is pecking the yellow one (which is the one with female breeding tube) you think they are a pair? Does it matter that the boy doesn't have a breeding tube? It looks like something is there but barely and its really hard to find a picture of a male breeding tube for some reason. And if they are aggressive to any other angel/fish why is he not touching my 4th angel? is it the size difference?

I knew when I wanted to breed that I was going to have to get a new tank for them but again kinda let it go, thinking I had all of one sex (got them at different times). Is it at all possible to keep them together? or not at all due to my size tank? Surprisingly they all seem peaceful today, should I expect eggs soon? or is this just a pairing ritual..I haven't seen the yellow and black go off and do their own thing like I would expect a pair to do. He does more of a trio thing with the other two, just hates the striped one. I feel so over my head but I guess thats the fun of it

 

[Sesshis_grl]

You will either need to get a tank which is at least 40" long × 18" tall × 15" wide, although I would still recommend something much bigger and another two Angels

Now I am no expert..and I greatly appreciate your advice but you are telling me to get a tank that is only 10 inches longer and telling me to add 2 more angels?? That doesn't really make sense. Wouldn't that put me right back in the same situation if it's a territory thing...

 

[KittyKat]

You will either need to get a tank which is at least 40" long × 18" tall × 15" wide, although I would still recommend something much bigger and another two Angels

Now I am no expert..and I greatly appreciate your advice but you are telling me to get a tank that is only 10 inches longer and telling me to add 2 more angels?? That doesn't really make sense. Wouldn't that put me right back in the same situation if it's a territory thing...

No, I am saying you should get a tank which is larger OR if you get a tank which is even larger than what I suggested as a minimum, you can get a couple more Angels and then any aggression will be spread over more fish.

Sorry if I was confusing!

 

[Sesshis_grl]

Ah! I'm sorry I misunderstood

I kinda want to wait and see who is trying to breed before thinking about moving anyone(if thats even the case). I also thought that they wouldn't need a bigger tank until they get bigger. The three smaller ones are about half dollar size and watching them swim, there seems to be plenty of room for everyone. Especially since they are the only species that is really swimming like that, the others are bottom dwellers. But maybe it is time to start looking for another tank... need a house

 

[Sesshis_grl]

But ok to get back to the original questions

If this is breeding behavior, is this just them pairing off? or are they trying to actually start laying eggs? And is it ok to have others in there at all? or are things going to get more crazy? I understand that they need a bigger tank but can't do it immediately, so do I need to separate until I can move them or will they be ok for the time being? I know angels defend their young and can get aggressive

It's getting aggressive over here...shes poking him back now. They will just sit there poking each others throats until she runs away Karin said her angels do this but it is supposed to look aggressive like that? She exposes it on purpose though everytime he comes over so I guess its ok?...idk

 

[Tolak]

A 29 gallon is fine for a breeding pair of angels, many breeders use bare bottom 20 talls. If you do get a pair remove the other angels, as there is not enough room for a breeding pair and any other angels. You could get up to 6 potential breeder size angels in there for pairing purposes, but once you see a pair starting remove all but the pair.

This does sound like pairing behavior to me, and as mentioned from breeding angels I've seen that blacks can be some of the nastiest fish around. At the very least I'd keep a divider handy, this should be standard equipment for anyone keeping cichlids. A longer tank like a 55 will often work for two pairs, decorate the center heavily to act as a natural divider, as well as each far side. Cichlids will key territory off of objects in the tank, this sort of setup will give you the best chance of success with multiple pairs.

 

[karin]

Karin

That is very exciting and scary to hear at the same time I originally got 4 to try and breed but when they weren't pairing up kinda forgot about it. So if the black one is pecking the yellow one (which is the one with female breeding tube) you think they are a pair? Does it matter that the boy doesn't have a breeding tube? It looks like something is there but barely and its really hard to find a picture of a male breeding tube for some reason. And if they are aggressive to any other angel/fish why is he not touching my 4th angel? is it the size difference?

I knew when I wanted to breed that I was going to have to get a new tank for them but again kinda let it go, thinking I had all of one sex (got them at different times). Is it at all possible to keep them together? or not at all due to my size tank? Surprisingly they all seem peaceful today, should I expect eggs soon? or is this just a pairing ritual..I haven't seen the yellow and black go off and do their own thing like I would expect a pair to do. He does more of a trio thing with the other two, just hates the striped one. I feel so over my head but I guess thats the fun of it

While anything is possible with cichlids, I bet your yellow will end up being the female. My female's breeding tube is visible for a much longer time than my male's is. Hers is thicker and she gets fat before spawning. His breeding tube is smaller, thinner and pointier and comes out really just for a day or two. Mine have spawned several times but the first couple were not fertile, I think the male was just not old enough. Now, as I said, the pleco eats the eggs within several hours.

If they are a pair, aggression will get worse and over successive spawns, I find my male is getting a bit more testy.

I think you will find that the angels will let you know when it is time to rehome, but given their size I would agree, one pair for the 29 gallon is all you can do. When you know you have a pair, rehome the others, no biggy. I had 8 juvenile angels in my 29 gallon and they got along for 2 months and then slowly I had to rehome. Now I'm left with what I thought was a pair but I think I might have two males.... hahaha all that work and jokes on me. But they are not fighting so we'll see.

Take care,
Karin

 

[Sesshis_grl]

Thank you both Karin & Tolak

Do you think I'm going to get eggs soon? or is there no way of telling? Also should the pair be off swimming with just themselves? because pretty sure they are still loosely schooling

thanks again