Angelfish Questions

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Winterlily

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I posted in the cichlid forum but am not getting much of a response - thought maybe this was better here? Anyhow, I'm in the process of setting up a 55 gallon tank and one of things I'm considering as inhabitants are angelfish (just angelfish - perhaps a couple/few corys) in it. I don't want to breed them. I've read somewhere along the way that I'm best off, in this situation, with all males or all females to avoid anyone getting picked on. Is that true? And if so, assuming I'm starting with the small, young ones, it's nearly impossible to sex them at that point, right? So what do I do? I don't want anyone harassed.

I'm also really interested in your thoughts about their "personalities" - meaning, like for example, they say that oscars really come to have a "relationship" with their keepers etc - what are angelfish like in this respect?

So! My questions are:
  • How many angels can I house well in a 55 gallon?
  • Do they have to all be the same sex?
  • If they do, how old/big do they have to be for me to accurately sex them?
  • Do they have any special requirements as to filtration? (Meaning, for example, fish like fancy goldfish are so messy that they require filtration over and above the "norm")
  • Any special requirements for substrate?
  • What is their temperament like with their people? Meaning, do they tend to be skittish, bold, "friendly", etc?
  • Do they do okay with hard water? (Water here is pretty hard, with a ph of about 7 - 7.5.)
  • How do I find local breeders?
  • Anything else I need to know or consider before jumping in with both feet?
Thanks SO much ahead of time!
 
I posted in the cichlid forum but am not getting much of a response - thought maybe this was better here? Anyhow, I'm in the process of setting up a 55 gallon tank and one of things I'm considering as inhabitants are angelfish (just angelfish - perhaps a couple/few corys) in it. I don't want to breed them. I've read somewhere along the way that I'm best off, in this situation, with all males or all females to avoid anyone getting picked on. Is that true? And if so, assuming I'm starting with the small, young ones, it's nearly impossible to sex them at that point, right? So what do I do? I don't want anyone harassed.

I'm also really interested in your thoughts about their "personalities" - meaning, like for example, they say that oscars really come to have a "relationship" with their keepers etc - what are angelfish like in this respect?

So! My questions are:
  • How many angels can I house well in a 55 gallon? 4/5
  • Do they have to all be the same sex? Impossible to sex at any age, until they breed
  • If they do, how old/big do they have to be for me to accurately sex them? As above
  • Do they have any special requirements as to filtration? (Meaning, for example, fish like fancy goldfish are so messy that they require filtration over and above the "norm") Good normal filtration is fine, preferably external on a 55g
  • Any special requirements for substrate? Either gravel or sand is fine
  • What is their temperament like with their people? Meaning, do they tend to be skittish, bold, "friendly", etc? IMO not much personality, but angel lovers will disagree.
  • Do they do okay with hard water? (Water here is pretty hard, with a ph of about 7 - 7.5.) Thats fine for them, so long as they acclimatised from the water they come from like any fish
  • How do I find local breeders? Pass
  • Anything else I need to know or consider before jumping in with both feet? They require a tank with a minimum of 18" height
Thanks SO much ahead of time!
 
How do I find local breeders? - IMO u could wait to see if anyone is selling a breeding pair of angels in the livestock section
 
Angel temperament varies, there's no way of telling at a young age if the fish will be more aggressive or docile. Having a group of all males or all females has no bearing on this.

No matter what the size of the group, they will form a pecking order. With a group in a 55 you are bound to get a pair, how aggressive and territorial the pair will be depends on the pair. Some pairs will claim a small area at one end of the tank, and just chase others away when actually spawning. Others will claim most of the tank as theirs, chasing all other inhabitants to one end, and at times not getting along with each other unless actually spawning. Angels are cichlids, at the very least have a divider at the ready, or a spare tank to house aggressive fish, which will have to be traded in if you want a peaceful community.

Angels will react to things outside of the tank, mainly they know you are the source of food in a short amount of time. I have a couple of 55's with angels, they will follow me from one end to the other as I work in the fishroom. In lower tanks they will follow my dogs, I guess they know if they are in there I must be around, or maybe they think the dogs feed them, who knows. While they are not as interactive as an oscar, my oscar will actually tease the dogs if they are next to the tank on the couch, they can see quite a distance outside of the tank, and are aware of what is going on out there. Feeding them by hand is no big trick, very similar to oscars in that respect.

How many angels can I house well in a 55 gallon? At least 5, show specimens require 10 gallons per fish, potential breeders 5 gallons per fish. Talk it over with your LFS, start with 10, with the plan being bringing back the more aggressive fish, if any, or the ones you are not that fond of. Any decent shop will love you for bringing in quality breeder size angels.

Do they have to all be the same sex? No, this really has no bearing on how territorial they may be.

If they do, how old/big do they have to be for me to accurately sex them? You can't sex them 10% unless they are actively spawning. With a well settled in group you can pretty much guess the sex at about 80% accuracy with dollar body size or larger angels. Some of this has to do with appearance, behavior is also a big factor. Guessing is 50% accuracy, so it really isn't a big advantage.

Do they have any special requirements as to filtration? (Meaning, for example, fish like fancy goldfish are so messy that they require filtration over and above the "norm") Nothing special with filtration, they do like a bit less water flow than other fish die to their body shape, so you don't want to go crazy with overfiltration.

Any special requirements for substrate? Gravel, sand, or no substrate at all, as long as the water and substrate if any is kept clean it really doesn't matter.

What is their temperament like with their people? Meaning, do they tend to be skittish, bold, "friendly", etc? As mentioned above, once they settle in they can be an interactive fish.

Do they do okay with hard water? (Water here is pretty hard, with a ph of about 7 - 7.5.) My water is hard, pH of 7.6 to 7.8. Been breeding them for years in this water. I've acclimated wild caught fish to this water with no problems.

How do I find local breeders? Clubs have breeders, while some of the club links in this list may be outdated, a Google search for the club name should bring some results; http://fins.actwin.com/dir/clubs.php?c=1&r=42 Being in New York, you may be near one of the best commercial angel breeders in the country, Steve at AngelsPlus. He's in Oleans, which may or may not be near you, but is worth checking out.

Anything else I need to know or consider before jumping in with both feet? Angels like warmer temperatures, 82-85F, keep this in mind for any tankmates. Clean water, a variety of flake and frozen foods, go easy on frozen bloodworms, plenty of frozen brine shrimp is fine. If you can pick these up live all the better, as well as live blackworms or nearly any other live food. When decorating the tank, set up decorations as a sort of natural divider or two, angels key territory off of objects in the tank, this will help define territories when they do mature.

Sorry for the longish answer, I feel sort of bad that this wasn't answered in the NW Cichlids section, my apology for that. Any more questions feel free to ask, if they get missed bring them to my attention.
 
Oh Tolak, thank you so much for the great and informative answer! I really appreciate that a lot! You answered every one of my questions. :good:

Fantastic advice too - all of it - from everyone. Thanks guys!

Still really undecided. I really want a couple/few oscars (one picked ME in the LPS yesterday - how I wanted to take him home!) but I understand it's just not doable with a 55 gallon. Ditto for severums... no clue about their personalities (?), but I love their looks. But again, unless I want only 1 or 2, I'm told I can't have them in a 55. So I have no idea!

Angels are still high on the list - but I really, really want the kind of fish that do sort of what you describe your (Tolak) oscars do.

Hmmm. If anyone has suggestions - I'd love to hear 'em. I have another thread running asking that very question - also not getting much response. I'm starting to take it personally. ;) Just kidding of course...

Again, thank you so much, Tolak, and everyone who helped with their reply!
 
Have a look at blue acara and keyhole cichlids then. They would even be ok in a community tank with angelfish and rams.
 
Have a look at blue acara and keyhole cichlids then. They would even be ok in a community tank with angelfish and rams.

The acara is a good idea for that size tank. I'm the recent owner of one, wild caught Aequidens pallidus that came in as a bonus with a shipment. I didn't have a tank set up for this one, the fish went from very soft low pH Rio Negro water to harder higher pH Chicago tap with a few hours acclimation. He didn't care, is in one of the first tanks when you walk into the fishroom, and the skittishness often associated with wild caught fish was gone in a few days. I think he likes the busy spot, eats anything I put in the tank, and pretty much ignores the angels in the tank next to him. I've seen angel pairs go at each other between tanks, to the point I've had to block their view, this fish could care less.
 
Okay... what then can I keep with angels? Can I, for example, put a couple rams in there too? How about a few female bettas? A couple acaras? Are ANY of those things compatible? Bottom dwellers are all okay, right?

From what Meguro said, it sounds like I could do rams, acaras, and angels. Do I understand that right? Any thoughts about a few female bettas?

And what of numbers? I know if I was doing ONLY angels, I should start with 10, assuming I'd be bringing back any overly-aggressive ones to end up with somewhere around 8. But if I was going to have rams and acaras (and maybe female bettas?), what kind of numbers (of each) are we looking at for a 55 gal? (Female bettas have to number at least 4.)

Feels like I'm making this too complicated. :blink:

Thanks!
 
If it helps, here is a recent post I had for stocking my 55 Gallon, with Angels being the main fish that I wanted in the tank. When going back and forth with Davo86 (I really enjoy watching him help stock a tan!) there are some great fish mentioned that you might be interested in. :good:

I don't think I'd put female bettas with Angels, but I can't say from experience. That's strictly from what I've read.

Hope this helps!
 
The female bettas would probably work better than a male betta, as they would be more likely to keep aggression inside their own species. Most angelfish would also ignore bettas, but you occasionally get some that would harass them.

Rams, keyholes and angelfish work. Blue acara, angelfish and keyholes work. Blue acara and rams is a bit of a gamble, depends on how aggressive your blue acaras end up being (I advise against the smaller blue rams with blue acara).

Someone like snowflake might be able to help you out with blue acaras temperament.

edit: just found this
I have a male bolviana ram by himself in a 36 gal tank with a keyhole and a blue acara he's ok as the only ram but the acara picks on him at times. Rams do like to have friends but will be just fine as the only one.
 
Okay - thanks guys. Will stay away from rams and blue acaras together then for sure. So, if I stick with just angelfish and rams - what would my best numbers be for a 55 gallon?

And, bottom dwellers are all okay with rams and angelfish, right? Better off with corys or something else? Or doesn't it matter?

And Mancin, thanks for the link!
 
Yeh I wouldnt mix them,Blue Acaras can be aggressive and they are alot larger than rams.

Angels with a Acara would be fine tho,Angels hold there own.
 
Thanks so much. I'll be looking at angelfish with rams then I think. I can indeed keep different types of rams together, yes?
 

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