Ammonia

[robert clements]

where can i get ammonia from i live in brighton sussex and what is the best one to buy . please

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Order online for delivery to shop from Boots chemist.
Homebase DIY do their own brand.
Jeyes Kleen Off household ammonia available online and usually from eBay...Google it.

 

[guppi]

I got some household ammonia from boots chemist

 

[robert clements]

thanks boots it is then thanks for your help.

what do you use to measure the ammonia when you put in the tank

 

[robertsskippyj]

thanks boots it is then thanks for your help.

what do you use to measure the ammonia when you put in the tank

Lots of good lfs sell graduated pipets. I buy 5ml ones for £1 for 5 at mine, yours might do something comparable. If not a pharmacy may well sell them.

 

[robert clements]

i work at a uni i get some over there then thanks for your help

 

[TwoTankAmin]

After years of doing fishless cycles using household ammonia which contains surfactants, I switched to using DrTims Ammonium Chloride. This formula is made dirt simple to use. Dose One drop per gallon to achieve 2 ppm (2mg/l) of ammonia. One should never exceed 5 ppm of ammonia as this will kill the very bacteria we are trying to get established.

Note- the bottle gives you a link to use to lean more about fishless cycling.

You can buy this in the UK from http/www.midlandreefs.co.uk/xcart/Dr_Tim-s_Aquatics_Products_For_Freshwater_Aquaria/

 

[Prime Ordeal]

After years of doing fishless cycles using household ammonia which contains surfactants.......One should never exceed 5 ppm of ammonia as this will kill the very bacteria we are trying to get established.

I thought I'd point out that the one's I've recommended above definitely do not contain surfactants...they are 100% ammonium hydroxide (well 9% ish actually ).

Also exceeding 5ppm doesn't kill the bacteria it just inhibits them, the higher the dose the greater the inhibition. And it happens at a far lower value than 5ppm, somewhere around 0.1ppm is where the inhibition starts (for the bacteria we actually want to establish).

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well Prime, you and the person credited with discovering the specific strains of bacteria which end up colonizing tanks say two toally different things in this regard. Since the former earned his PhD for discovering this and I have no idea who you are in real life. I will accept what he says in preference to what you say.

These are his exact words:

You want to have an initial ammonia-nitrogen concentration of 2 to 3 mg/L (ppm). Do not go above 5 mg/L. ....... You want to be careful adding more ammonia because you do not want the nitrite-nitrogen over 5 mg/L as this will start to poison the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria. Add a little ammonia every few days (1/4 dose) making sure the nitrite does not go above 5 mg/L.

From http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/fishless/fishless.html

I assume poison means killing not inhibiting.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Well Prime, you and the person credited with discovering the specific strains of bacteria which end up colonizing tanks say two toally different things in this regard. Since the former earned his PhD for discovering this and I have no idea who you are in real life. I will accept what he says in preference to what you say.

These are his exact words:

You want to have an initial ammonia-nitrogen concentration of 2 to 3 mg/L (ppm). Do not go above 5 mg/L. ....... You want to be careful adding more ammonia because you do not want the nitrite-nitrogen over 5 mg/L as this will start to poison the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria. Add a little ammonia every few days (1/4 dose) making sure the nitrite does not go above 5 mg/L.

From http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/fishless/fishless.html

I assume poison means killing not inhibiting.

You assume wrongly and you join the many on this forum who misinterpret information like this (and is how these myths get started). The 'poisoning' is the inhibition and the greater the dose the greater the poisoning or inhibition. They are not killed. They'll bounce back quite happily once the level drops.

If I can find it I'll post a quote from Tim where he directly contradicts that quote. He essentially says that the nitrifiers are pretty indestructible unless you penetrate the cell wall or dose them with H2S.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I found it. I figured the easiest solution was to contact Dr. Hovanec directly and ask him to clarify things. I will post both my email his reply in a new thread when I receive it. What is most interesting is he says 5 ppm can start to poison and then that 10 ppm will inhibit them in different places.

I also asked him to clarify the death of a bacteria vis-a-vis rupturing of the cell wall etc. He says that the bacteria in a bottle only remain usefull for about one year max. But he also states that these bacteria have survived on the planet for millions of years because they can shut down during periods of extended drought. So I asked if the can survive extended drought and continue the survival of the species, then why can't they do the came after a few years in a bottle.

He has replied to past emails so I am assuming I will get an answer but it may take time as I am sure he is a busy man.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I found it. I figured the easiest solution was to contact Dr. Hovanec directly and ask him to clarify things. I will post both my email his reply in a new thread when I receive it. What is most interesting is he says 5 ppm can start to poison and then that 10 ppm will inhibit them in different places.

I also asked him to clarify the death of a bacteria vis-a-vis rupturing of the cell wall etc. He says that the bacteria in a bottle only remain usefull for about one year max. But he also states that these bacteria have survived on the planet for millions of years because they can shut down during periods of extended drought. So I asked if the can survive extended drought and continue the survival of the species, then why can't they do the came after a few years in a bottle.

He has replied to past emails so I am assuming I will get an answer but it may take time as I am sure he is a busy man.

A lot of Tim's statements on the forums are contradictory (as you've indicated) and his reply should make interesting reading. Just remember, this guy, PhD or not, is a business man and has a vested interest in sometimes 'massaging' the information to fit his company's products. This is why you can find contradictory statements from him.

Furthermore, he may be the best known researcher in this field but he is far from the only one. And those other researchers publish copious peer reviewed papers where you can find equally good but often contradictory information relating to nitrifying bacteria and their optimal parameters for survival. It may even surprise you to learn that not everyone agrees with Tim Hovanec's paper on nitrospira, but that's another subject.

That particular quote about the longevity of bacteria and drying out relates to bacteria capable of sporulation and is unquestionably wrong in relation to nitrifying bacteria. It raised my eyebrow to astounding heights when I read it, particularly coming from a person who should know better. But it helps to fool you (if left unquestioned) into believing his claims as to the long term efficacy of his nitrifier products.

Even the comment about how difficult it is to kill nitrifying bacteria is incorrect, as a moment's thought would tell you. Ever heard of chlorine and chloramine?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Prime- I have a lot of problems with your last reply.

Just remember, this guy, PhD or not, is a business man and has a vested interest in sometimes 'massaging' the information to fit his company's products. This is why you can find contradictory statements from him.

This would mean his professional ethics as a researcher mean little to him. Your argument implies that anybody who has a financial interest in something will always sell out their other moral and ethical principles for a buck. I find as many contradictions in your postings if not more than you seem to find with Dr. Hovanecs work.

It may even surprise you to learn that not everyone agrees with Tim Hovanec's paper on nitrospira, but that's another subject

I have spent many hours surfing papers and articles on this topic. I have still not been able to find a single peer reviewed paper supplanting his research which state a different bacteria is at work in our tanks than the ones he identified. I can find countless papers which support much of what he says about EPS and how these work to keep all sorts of bacteria "alive". I would be most grateful therefore, if you would post a few links to those published papers refuting Dr. Hovanec's conclusions regarding the correct strains of tank bacteria. I simply can not find these papers you imply exist. It is easy to state folks don't agree, it is another providing evidence that Dr. Hovanec's work is not valid and that something else has been shown to supplant it.

What I have been able to find is subsequent research which shows that the ammonia levels present in the water are one of the main determinants of which specific strain of bacteria will dominate. Basically, the research indicates that during the initial phases of a tank being cycled when ammonia levels are at their highest, other strains of AOBs may be present as they do better in higher ammonia environments, But once a tank is cycled these bacteria have almost totally vanished and the ones Dr, Hovanec et al discovered are the dominant strains which maintain the cycle.

that particular quote about the longevity of bacteria and drying out relates to bacteria capable of sporulation and is unquestionably wrong in relation to nitrifying bacteria.

No it does not. You had best go back and reread the material. He in fact clearly states that nitrifyers do not form spores. He discuses the formation of extra-cellular polymeric substances which protect the nitrifyers. If you want to spend the rest of your life reading on this topic, go to Google Scholar and put in "bacteria + extra-cellular polymeric substances"- you will get over 30,000 papers back. He doesn't say the bacteria dries out, he is discussing how the bacteria are able to survive drought conditions. Here are his exact words:

One also reads a lot that since nitrifying bacteria don't form spores (which is true) they cannot shutdown and go into a resting phase which is false. Nitrifying bacteria have a different way of maintaining their viability when conditions are poor which relates to the fact that they prefer to be attached to surfaces where they can develop a coating or shield of exoploymer substances (EPS) that protects them.

An then you wrote:

Even the comment about how difficult it is to kill nitrifying bacteria is incorrect, as a moment's thought would tell you. Ever heard of chlorine and chloramine?

Again you have tried to oversimplify and distort what he has said. He states that one way to "kill" a nitrifying bacteria would be to rupture or break down the cell wall. So how does chlorine kill bacteria? Here is the answer:

Chlorine kills bacteria though a fairly simple chemical reaction. The chlorine solution you pour into the water breaks down into many different chemicals, including hypochlorous acid (HOCl) and hypochlorite ion (OCl[sup]-[/sup]). Both kill microorganisms and bacteria by attacking the lipids in the cell walls and destroying the enzymes and structures inside the cell, rendering them oxidized and harmless.

from http/science.howst...question652.htm

Less than a moment's thought was required for me to see your statement is actually a contradiction and in fact supports what he says rather than having the opposite effect you imply.

Finally, we have limited most of our discussions to Dr. Hovanec's research. However, he did not publish his paper alone, he shared credit for the research with Paul C Burrell and Carol M Phalen. Perhaps one should do a bit of followup on what they have done since then. To refute the work of Dr. Hovanec means also refuting the work of the other two researchers involved.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Surprisingly I heard back from Dr, Hovanec already. As promised the new thread can be found in the Scientific Section here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/386023-exchange-w-dr-tim-re-nutrifying-bacteria/