Ammonia Remover/zeolite!

[andy.ahad]

Hi all

Sorry if there is an obvious answer to this, but I have been reading up on tank cyling and ammonia/nitrite spikes and have come accross a few products that claim to eliminate ammonia. ie Zeolite/Fluval ammonia remover. This got me thinking that if there are products such as this available, why bother cycling?? I mean no ammonia = no nitrites = no nitrates! Right?

Or am I missing something??

I currently have 4 tanks atm all of which have been cycled for some time. However I had a ammonia/nitrite spike in one after medicating it. I am not asking because I intend using the stuff above, but was just curious!

Andy

 

[Forestpisces]

Zeolite is presant in stingray filter pads

With my stingray 10 i thought i was cycled and had been for a good while but then my ammonia readings when sky high and were not coming down no matter how much water i changed, i asked on the forum and was told that although zeolite does work it will only do so for a limited amount of time, after that it just dumps extra ammonia in the water and thats where my problem was coming from.

That would mean that the manufacturers want consumers to buy new pads every month BUT having to re cyle your tank in the meantime which can take well over a month, it's just not logical.

So now i am in the proccess of changing the zeolite pads for normal filter foam, replacing half at a time after rinsing it in water that has had the used zeolite squeezed into it.

So in my opinion zeolite sucks.

Not sure whether that helps but it's just my experience.

 

[Bignose]

Cost.

Zeolite isn't free. The cycling bacteria are. The cycling bacteria are -- as far as bacteria go -- hard to kill, very resistant to change and ever present. Once the zeolite has all its sites full up, the ammonia will just stop be adsorbed. You could go from 0 ppm ammonia to 10 ppm in a matter of days. That won't happen with bacteria almost no matter what.

I think it isn't a terrible idea to have some zeolite on hand in case of emergencies, but as a long-term solution I think that you are throwing massive amounts of money away.

 

[Dave Spencer]

With my stingray 10 i thought i was cycled and had been for a good while but then my ammonia readings when sky high and were not coming down no matter how much water i changed, i asked on the forum and was told that although zeolite does work it will only do so for a limited amount of time, after that it just dumps extra ammonia in the water and thats where my problem was coming from.

I would strongly refute Zeolite dumping ammonia back in to the water once it is exhausted. You probably experienced a rise in ammonia because the Zeolite was no longering adsorbing ammonia.

I always start my planted tanks off with Zeolite in the filter to keep the ammonia down and algae at bay. The Zeolite itself becomes a ready supply of ammonia for nitrifying bacteria, so once it is exhausted it becomes ordinary filter media. My most recent tank was started without Zeolite as I never had any, and I got brown diatoms for the first time.

Zeolite has never dumped ammonia back in to my tanks that I or my fish are aware of. I honestly don`t think it does do this, or my fish would let me know.

Dave.

EDIT: Having said all of this, my tanks do run at a low pH, so I guess it could be that less toxic ammonium would be released unnoticed. Mmmmmm....now this has got me thinking.

Adding Zeolite to a mature tank should be OK as the bacteria would colonise the Zeolite before it becomes exhausted. I wonder if anybody has genuinely experienced ammonia being released back in to the water. I never test so I can`t say either way.

 

[afishdude]

If you want to skip cycling and buy products, go for it! If your forget to dose or run out and cant get anymore your going to have some big problems.

 

[Bignose]

With my stingray 10 i thought i was cycled and had been for a good while but then my ammonia readings when sky high and were not coming down no matter how much water i changed, i asked on the forum and was told that although zeolite does work it will only do so for a limited amount of time, after that it just dumps extra ammonia in the water and thats where my problem was coming from.

I would strongly refute Zeolite dumping ammonia back in to the water once it is exhausted. You probably experienced a rise in ammonia because the Zeolite was no longering adsorbing ammonia.

I always start my planted tanks off with Zeolite in the filter to keep the ammonia down and algae at bay. The Zeolite itself becomes a ready supply of ammonia for nitrifying bacteria, so once it is exhausted it becomes ordinary filter media. My most recent tank was started without Zeolite as I never had any, and I got brown diatoms for the first time.

Zeolite has never dumped ammonia back in to my tanks that I or my fish are aware of. I honestly don`t think it does do this, or my fish would let me know.

Dave.

EDIT: Having said all of this, my tanks do run at a low pH, so I guess it could be that less toxic ammonium would be released unnoticed. Mmmmmm....now this has got me thinking.

Adding Zeolite to a mature tank should be OK as the bacteria would colonise the Zeolite before it becomes exhausted. I wonder if anybody has genuinely experienced ammonia being released back in to the water. I never test so I can`t say either way.

The adsorption of ammonia is reversible, and ammonia can be released from zeolite. Like most things in nature, it is completely based on the equilibrium.

For example, say the zeolite adsorbs 99% of the ammonia in the water (this is a made up number, the actual % adsorbed will depend on many factors, temperature, pH, type of zeolite, etc.) Water that originally had 1 ppm of ammonia, will have 0.01 ppm, virtually undetectable. Now, if that water loses some ammonia (water change, or bacterial colony grows), the zeolite will release some ammonia to achieve that 99:1 split again. If the water became perfectly clear, the zeolite would release just enough so that the concentration in the water would be 0.0099 ppm. This is so that the ratio between whats in the zeolite and water is again 99:1.

That said, the sharp spike written about is definitely due to the fact that all the zeolite adsorption sites were full and there was no more room for ammonia to go. The amount that gets dumped back in is always going to be very very small and only if the water is cleaned in some way.

 

[andy.ahad]

If you want to skip cycling and buy products, go for it! If your forget to dose or run out and cant get anymore your going to have some big problems.

I have no intention of skipping cycling, as stated earlier!! I was just curious as to how well these products work. However I do agree that it would be a good thing to have in case of emergencies!!

 

[alchemist]

The way I have looked at this is -

For arguments sake the fish produce 2 ppm of ammonia per day.
For arguments sake the Zeolite is capable of absorbing 40 ppm of ammonia.
So after 20 days - my Zeolite 'capacity' is used up. Day 21, 2 ppm of ammonia in the tank, Day 22, 4 ppm, Day 23 6 ppm. etc.

It is also important to factor in that your biological media is normally before the Zeolite in the water flow of your filter.
Therefore your bacteria colony should build up as normal and the Zeolite is only taking up any 'excess' ammonia in the chain.

When you are cycling - your Zeolite 'capacity' may run out very quickly as it is absorbing all this excess ammonia that your bacteria colony cannot cope with. However - once your fully established - the Zeolite has nothing to do and in theory could last much longer as it's 'capacity' isn't used up yet.

Therefore I can see that Zeolite does have a place in a fully established filter as it would protect you against ammonia 'spikes' and therefore a nitrite 'spike' whilst your bacteria colony got up to speed.

The important thing to understand in my view - is that the Zeolite does eventually get saturated - therefore you must regularly change it so that any excess ammonia that your bacteria colony + your zeolite isn't processing doesn't get dropped into your tank.

I do not think Zeolite is as bad as some people make out - as long as it is used properly. I think it does have a place alongside products such as ammo-lock e.g. when you are adding new fish - or doing a substrate change to protect against spiking.

 

[bagu]

i think...

once it reaches the point of being full; it breaks down and releases a huge amount off ammonia

 

[alchemist]

As far as I am aware it should not 'dump' it's contents unless there is strong salt concentration in your water.
This is an interesting point for people that are using salt for medication purposes and also have Zeolite in their filter.

You can 're-charge' your Zeolite by putting it into a strong salt solution overnight which swaps the converted ammonium in the Zeolite with the Sodium in the water; you then rinse it the next day with plain water.

 

[Dave Spencer]

It is also important to factor in that your biological media is normally before the Zeolite in the water flow of your filter.
Therefore your bacteria colony should build up as normal and the Zeolite is only taking up any 'excess' ammonia in the chain.

I have always put it as the last stage of filtration in my tanks for this reason.

I am also pretty sure that the bacteria will rapidly move on to the Zeolite to exploit this easy source of ammonia. Using Zeowonder as a substrate is quite popular in planted tanks in the US, too. It gets a bad rap, but Zeolite has its place in the hobby, and is very beneficial in planted set ups in my experience.

Dave.

 

[rabbut]

With my stingray 10 i thought i was cycled and had been for a good while but then my ammonia readings when sky high and were not coming down no matter how much water i changed, i asked on the forum and was told that although zeolite does work it will only do so for a limited amount of time, after that it just dumps extra ammonia in the water and thats where my problem was coming from.

I would strongly refute Zeolite dumping ammonia back in to the water once it is exhausted. You probably experienced a rise in ammonia because the Zeolite was no longering adsorbing ammonia.

I always start my planted tanks off with Zeolite in the filter to keep the ammonia down and algae at bay. The Zeolite itself becomes a ready supply of ammonia for nitrifying bacteria, so once it is exhausted it becomes ordinary filter media. My most recent tank was started without Zeolite as I never had any, and I got brown diatoms for the first time.

Zeolite has never dumped ammonia back in to my tanks that I or my fish are aware of. I honestly don`t think it does do this, or my fish would let me know.

Dave.

EDIT: Having said all of this, my tanks do run at a low pH, so I guess it could be that less toxic ammonium would be released unnoticed. Mmmmmm....now this has got me thinking.

Adding Zeolite to a mature tank should be OK as the bacteria would colonise the Zeolite before it becomes exhausted. I wonder if anybody has genuinely experienced ammonia being released back in to the water. I never test so I can`t say either way.

Dve saying Zeolite does not dump is correct, though Zeolite is an ion exchanger and can hence still release some of what it absorbs back in some instances. These instances are covered by Alchemist and Bignose quite well.

The way I have looked at this is -

For arguments sake the fish produce 2 ppm of ammonia per day.
For arguments sake the Zeolite is capable of absorbing 40 ppm of ammonia.
So after 20 days - my Zeolite 'capacity' is used up. Day 21, 2 ppm of ammonia in the tank, Day 22, 4 ppm, Day 23 6 ppm. etc.

It is also important to factor in that your biological media is normally before the Zeolite in the water flow of your filter.
Therefore your bacteria colony should build up as normal and the Zeolite is only taking up any 'excess' ammonia in the chain.

When you are cycling - your Zeolite 'capacity' may run out very quickly as it is absorbing all this excess ammonia that your bacteria colony cannot cope with. However - once your fully established - the Zeolite has nothing to do and in theory could last much longer as it's 'capacity' isn't used up yet.

Therefore I can see that Zeolite does have a place in a fully established filter as it would protect you against ammonia 'spikes' and therefore a nitrite 'spike' whilst your bacteria colony got up to speed.

The important thing to understand in my view - is that the Zeolite does eventually get saturated - therefore you must regularly change it so that any excess ammonia that your bacteria colony + your zeolite isn't processing doesn't get dropped into your tank.

I do not think Zeolite is as bad as some people make out - as long as it is used properly. I think it does have a place alongside products such as ammo-lock e.g. when you are adding new fish - or doing a substrate change to protect against spiking.

I'm going to extend this challenge to Dave also, but please explain why often when customers at work present me with a water sample from a mature and fully stocked tank, that has been for a while, that shows Ammonia, I often find that they have recently stopped using or replacing/rechanrging regularly, the zeolite that they had been using to that point in their filter? While Zeolite probibly won't do much damage to a mature filter bacteria colony, if used short-term, as they are able to be starved over a long time, if Zeolite is present from the outset of an aquarium, it deffinately seems to stop the cycle occuring Don't get me wrong, Zeolite does have it's uses, I just find them limiting

Zeolite also absorbs medications, so if you have to treat an established stock of fish and you pull it out, what happens if you have been using it from the outset? It would appear from the first-hand user reports I see, that there would be an issue with Ammonia rising in the tank uppon the Zeolites removal, right when the fish are stressed by disease and the treatment and you really don't want to be having an Ammonia spike

All the best
Rabbut

 

[alchemist]

I'm going to extend this challenge to Dave also, but please explain why often when customers at work present me with a water sample from a mature and fully stocked tank, that has been for a while, that shows Ammonia, I often find that they have recently stopped using or replacing/rechanrging regularly, the zeolite that they had been using to that point in their filter?

I would assume that the Zeolite was still buffering excess ammonia - and when they stopped or it got saturated - the excess was getting into the tank and they spiked.

So this asks - why didn't the bacteria colony continue to grow rather than it buffering to the Zeolite?

My answer to that would be - in order for the bacteria colony to grow to its maximum potential - the water would need to pass several (hundred) times past the biological media. The colony won't magically grow to meet the excess in one pass. However - the Zeolite does have the capacity to grab all the excess in one pass.

E.g. (Numbers are completely random and the false concept of 'daily' ammonia load is there for arguments sake)

The mature bacteria colony handles 20 ppm of ammonia. My fresh Zeolite provides a 40ppm 'buffer'
I add some fish. The new 'excess' ammonia is 1 ppm per day.

My bacteria colony manages to grow by a very small amount say 0.01ppm each pass. My Zeolite now takes on board the 0.999pm excess each day. There is only 1 good pass at the bacteria colony.

If I keep changing my Zeolite - everything is good - and over a long period of time - my Bacteria colony will eventually grow to meet the new 1ppm. Each day it is growing its ability by 0.01ppm. After day 100 - my colony is up to speed and my Zeolite no longer takes on any excess.

If I suddenly stopped refreshing the Zeolite during this phase - where my colonies ability is less than my ammonia output - I will get a 0.99ppm per day spike on day 1 .. or say a 0.20 ppm per day spike on day 80 of this phase.

Of course - at this point with no Zeolite in the tank - my colony is getting the full blast of excess ammonia each pass of the filter - so it will rapidly grow to meet the excess. (Mini-cycle)

As for medication etc. at this point - you are in a mini-cycle mode - your Zeolite is no longer there to take the excess - therefore time to use some ammo-lock

 

[Dave Spencer]

I'm going to extend this challenge to Dave also, but please explain why often when customers at work present me with a water sample from a mature and fully stocked tank, that has been for a while, that shows Ammonia, I often find that they have recently stopped using or replacing/rechanrging regularly, the zeolite that they had been using to that point in their filter? While Zeolite probibly won't do much damage to a mature filter bacteria colony, if used short-term, as they are able to be starved over a long time, if Zeolite is present from the outset of an aquarium, it deffinately seems to stop the cycle occuring Don't get me wrong, Zeolite does have it's uses, I just find them limiting

First off, I should probably explain that my sole use for Zeolite is as part of an algae prevention process when starting up new planted tanks. Its ability to rid the water column of ammonia has produced great results for me in this respect, but as part of a series of steps. For anyone starting a planted tank that realises it doesn`t need to be cycled, I can strongly recommend the use of Zeolite. My most recent 60cm was started without Zeolite as I didn`t have any, and now I have seen brown diatoms for the first time in a couple of years.

So, why are people experiencing an ammonia spike when they remove the Zeolite? Well, my theory, which I have alluded to on this thread, is that the nitrifying bacteria is almost certainly going to exploit the readily available ammonia adsorbed by the Zeolite and move on to its surfaces. To me, this suggests that the Zeolite is now just filter media, with a fair percentage of filter bacteria colonising it and processing the ammonia. I only have use for Zeolite in the early stages of my tank, so it stays in the filter long after it is exhausted (one year in my present tank come September).

If I were to remove the Zeolite, I would be removing a percentage of my filters nitrifying capacity, with a subsequent instantaneous loss of ammonia processing. Hence the spike. All speculation of course, but I have serious doubts about some peoples reasons for hating the stuff.

Dave.

 

[rabbut]

So your theories beind the spikes are eiter that the stuff slows the spike or that the Zeolite acts as bio-media and causes a spike if removed. The latter would explain the spikes seen upon it's removal, but how about if the stuff is allowed to saturate in a "mature" tank?