Ammonia Problem

[finalfantay85]

One of my new guppies i bought on the weekend died very rapidly today without any sign of disease so I bought a liquid testing kit and my ammonia levels were 4ppm or maybe slightly above on the colour chart but not up to 8ppm.
I've done a partial water change, about 30-35%, and added some more denitrifying bacteria to try and help the filter out.
I am gonna have to get something to remove the ammonia first thing tomorrow obviously but is there anything else i can do tonight to help the situation?
It's a 57L tank and it's been up and running about 6 weeks now

 

[MewMew42]

the best thing you can do is do a big water change, about 50%, then do another 50% tomorrow

keep testing the water

how big is the tank? and whats in there? how new is it? was it cycled?

just need to identify the cause of the ammonia problem and to stop it happening again!

 

[finalfantay85]

the best thing you can do is do a big water change, about 50%, then do another 50% tomorrow

keep testing the water

how big is the tank? and whats in there? how new is it? was it cycled?

just need to identify the cause of the ammonia problem and to stop it happening again!

I will do a 50% change in the water tomorrow as i did a small water change yesterday as i had to remove my betta cos he started to attack so i took some water out to keep him in and replaced it with fresh, probably about 2G replaced.
It's a 57L, been running about 6 weeks now, it has 5 guppy, 6 flame tetra, 8 copper harlequins and 3 ottos tho all are under 2cm at the moment.
I'm new at this so i don't know what you mean by has it cycled. I feel like a complete idiot right now lol.

 

[finalfantay85]

Just thought i had a plant in there that was dying that i removed on saturday. Could that have contributed to the ammonia levels rising so high?

 

[MewMew42]

the best thing you can do is do a big water change, about 50%, then do another 50% tomorrow

keep testing the water

how big is the tank? and whats in there? how new is it? was it cycled?

just need to identify the cause of the ammonia problem and to stop it happening again!

I will do a 50% change in the water tomorrow as i did a small water change yesterday as i had to remove my betta cos he started to attack so i took some water out to keep him in and replaced it with fresh, probably about 2G replaced.
It's a 57L, been running about 6 weeks now, it has 5 guppy, 6 flame tetra, 8 copper harlequins and 3 ottos tho all are under 2cm at the moment.
I'm new at this so i don't know what you mean by has it cycled. I feel like a complete idiot right now lol.

oh no dont worry about that =] cycling is the process of preparing your filter for the waste that the fish produce many members on here do it fishlessly by adding ammonia, it seems like you have done it fish in, which is fine but a bit more hard work! there are many threads on here about cycling so check em out! =]

if you do a 50% tomorrow then in theory it should bring your ammonia down to 2ppm then a further 50% will bring it down to 1ppm and so forth

id probably say to do daily tests to to keep an eye on things, do you have a nitrite, nitrate and ph test kit at all? if not it migh be worth getting an all in one liquid thingy by api, its mighty handy! about 9 in 10 fish health problems are cause by water quality issues

how fast did you add the fish? adding them quickly my have triggered the ammonia, also how much do you feed and how often? do you gravel vac?

Just thought i had a plant in there that was dying that i removed on saturday. Could that have contributed to the ammonia levels rising so high?

it could well be a factor yeah

 

[rebrn]

Hi and don't feel stupid ... I am relatively new myself and new nothing about cycling eithor. There is a great section under the New to the hobby link called "the Beginners resource center". It has a ton of great information ... I lived in that section for a while. You are in a Fish-in cycle so you definately want to read that section. The link to the Begginers resource center is:

[URL="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=277264"]http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=277264[/URL]

Also you may want to check the posts in the "new to the hobby" section, there is a lot of posts on cycling that can also help shed some light on the subject. Your other option, if you want and if you can, is to return your fish to the LFS and start a fishless cycle. I know that some LFS won't let you return the fish, mine didn't, so you may not have a choice. But if you can fishless cycles are a lot less stress and work for you.

Good Luck

 

[finalfantay85]

I think the partial water change i've done has dropped it down to around 3ppm it's hard to tell the colour exactly.
Ah right i know what you mean now, just didn't know it was called cycling. Yeah i did it by adding nitrifying bacteria once the fish were in.
I added the 6 flame tetra a week after setting up the tank, i added the 8 copper harlequins about 10 days later then a week after that i added the betta and the 3 otto, then this saturday i added the guppy. That was a mistake but in my defence he lived with guppies at the lfs.
Yeah i've got the API liquid testing kit that does it all. I bought it earlier after the guppy died and found out the ammonia was way too high. All other levels are normal but that was on a stick test so i will test all them too to make sure.
If the rest of the guppy survive i am gonna replace the one snakeskin that has died and leave it for a while before thinking of adding.
I feed them every other day and just a few flakes each. I was given this advice by a family friend who kept tropical fish for years and was a successful breeder.
I don't gravel vac at the moment but i am gonna get one soon.
Is it worth getting something like the Ammo-loc to bind all the ammonia in the water?

 

[rebrn]

I think the partial water change i've done has dropped it down to around 3ppm it's hard to tell the colour exactly.
Ah right i know what you mean now, just didn't know it was called cycling. Yeah i did it by adding nitrifying bacteria once the fish were in.
I added the 6 flame tetra a week after setting up the tank, i added the 8 copper harlequins about 10 days later then a week after that i added the betta and the 3 otto, then this saturday i added the guppy. That was a mistake but in my defence he lived with guppies at the lfs.
Yeah i've got the API liquid testing kit that does it all. I bought it earlier after the guppy died and found out the ammonia was way too high. All other levels are normal but that was on a stick test so i will test all them too to make sure.
If the rest of the guppy survive i am gonna replace the one snakeskin that has died and leave it for a while before thinking of adding.
I feed them every other day and just a few flakes each. I was given this advice by a family friend who kept tropical fish for years and was a successful breeder.
I don't gravel vac at the moment but i am gonna get one soon.
Is it worth getting something like the Ammo-loc to bind all the ammonia in the water?

When you say you added nitfying bacteria was it "bacteria in a bottle" or did you get some mature filter media? Most "bacteria in a bottle" products don't work they are a waste of money. The only one I know of for sure that did work was called Bio-Spira but it is no longer available. I am testing a new product now to see if it works, but thus far (2 days in) no solid evidance that it does work. So chance are, unless you got some mature filter media, that the bacteria you added are doing very little, in fact probably nothing, to help your cycle. Also, if you left your tank with no ammonia source for a week any bacteria formed probably died since no ammonia means no food for the bacteria. So I would say you are most likely still in the cycling phase, and generally a full cycle with or with out fish generally takes longer than a week. So to play it safe assume you are still in a cycle, check water every 12 hours (since you have fish) and do water changes accordingly. Ammonia of 3 ppm is still really really high and could potentially kill your fish. I am not trying to be mean honestly, I went through this my self and I know it can be very frustrating, and the LFS are not much help, at least not in my experience. You definately want to do another water change, I think no less then 50%. I am by no means an expert, still a beginner myself, so the more experienced people may suggest a different amount of water changes ... go by what they say, no one on this fourm has ever steered me wrong.

I know this can be frustrating, extremely frustrating, expically when you get the wrong or conflicting information. But keep with it, you will get there. The people on this fourm are amazing, there are some really experienced people here and they are alway willing to help out where they can. Check out the new to the hobby section ... there are alot of cycling and ammonia problems posted there you should be able to find answers to your problem there, if not don't worry, the more experienced people will definately respond to help you better then I can.

Good Luck

 

[finalfantay85]

Yeah it was a bacteria in a bottle called Filter Start. A friend is using the same product with no problems and added fish at a similar rate.
I followed what my lfs said and had the tank set up for a week before adding any fish to it but only started adding the bacteria once the fish were in there. The product recommends 2ml for a tank my size added every other day for 2 weeks. Sorry if i was confusing you.
I've just done the readings with my other testing solutions and the pH is 7.6, the Nitrite levels are 0ppm and the Nitrate levels are somewhere between 0 and 5ppm on the colour chart

 

[rebrn]

Yeah it was a bacteria in a bottle called Filter Start. A friend is using the same product with no problems and added fish at a similar rate.
I followed what my lfs said and had the tank set up for a week before adding any fish to it but only started adding the bacteria once the fish were in there. The product recommends 2ml for a tank my size added every other day for 2 weeks. Sorry if i was confusing you.
I've just done the readings with my other testing solutions and the pH is 7.6, the Nitrite levels are 0ppm and the Nitrate levels are somewhere between 0 and 5ppm on the colour chart

That product may work, I am not famillar with it myself, I have not heard anything about it. But I know that most of them don't work, espically if they are not refridgerated. Live bacteria dies in temperatue extremes. So essentially, with most "bacteria in a bottle" products what you are actually adding is dead bacteria which of course does the aquarium no good. You may want to try to see if you can get some mature filter media. In the Beginner's Resource Section there is a link to people willing to donate media. That will be your best bet to get the bacteria growing in your tank. In the meantime, keep up with your water testing and water changes. You may be in for a lot of water changes in order to get the ammonia under control. Like I said I am realatively new to this myself, so hopefully the more experienced people will be able to give you more and better advise then my limited skills can provide. But let me know if there is anything else I can do to help, even if it is just morale support. .

 

[finalfantay85]

It's an Interpet product. I think it's bacteria in a hiberated/dormant stage that revive when added to the tank.
Thanks for the help, you've been great. And to make matters worse i'm probably gonna go thru this all again cos i've got a second tank for my betta and had to get it in a hurry cos he turned violent. I guess i'm gonna be lugging lots of water and doing plenty of testing over the coming weeks.
Relaxing hobby indeed lol

 

[rebrn]

It's an Interpet product. I think it's bacteria in a hiberated/dormant stage that revive when added to the tank.
Thanks for the help, you've been great. And to make matters worse i'm probably gonna go thru this all again cos i've got a second tank for my betta and had to get it in a hurry cos he turned violent. I guess i'm gonna be lugging lots of water and doing plenty of testing over the coming weeks.
Relaxing hobby indeed lol

I know what you mean. I started with a fish-in cycle, unfortunately my fish somehow managed to find a little hole and jumed out so now my 2 tanks are in a fishless cycle, much easier, but duing the fish-in period I practically selpt next to that tank. It is a lot of frustrating work, but it will get easier. I am testing a new bacteria product that I have heard good things about called Dr. Tims one and only bacteria. The link is http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=309039 if you want to follow my little experiment and judge for your self if it works. So far no definitave data one way or the other but if it works it should make your next tank easier to set up.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Excellent advice from rebrn and the others above! Well done!

It seems to me you are in a fish-in cycle/ammonia spike. The reason why I said ammonia spike is because your nitrite level is still at zero, as for now that is. Also, the Filter Start is no good. You can continue to use it until it is all gone, or just stop using it all together.

Also, I see you have not been doing gravel cleaning with a gravel vac, this could possibly be the main reason as to why your ammonia is so high right now. When you do not clean the gravel, which should be done weekly during you weekly water change of 10-20%, fish waste, dead and decaying plant matter and other debris settle on the bottom of the tank. When this happens, the fish poo and other what stuff began to produce ammonia. Over time, 6 weeks in your case, there is going to be an exponential increase in the ammonia produced from this rotting matter at the bottom of your tank, which could be where you ammonia spike is coming from. So, you need to get a gravel vac at your fish store, any will do! Just as long you swift through your substrate and get all the poo and debris out.

"What is cycling?"

Like stated above, cycling is colonizing enough bacteria in your filter, these bacteria process ammonia and nitrite, to safely handle the ammonia that is given off by your fish. In the beginning, there is not even close to the amount of bacteria you need, so it takes time to colonize these bacteria. First, when ammonia is produced, the first type of bacteria process the ammonia. When ammonia is processed, it turns into nitrite. Now, a second bacteria begins to colonize. This bacteria processing nitrite into nitrAte.

Ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish if one, or the other, exceeds .25 ppm! Ammonia at or above .25 ppm will cause permanent gill damage, while nitrite at or above .25 ppm will cause permanent nerve damage.

In a fully cycled tank the ammonia and nitrite will remain at 0 ppm, because of the bacteria. At this time, a fully cycled tank, there is enough bacteria to process the ammonia and nitrite, and keep them at a constant 0 ppm.

Nitrate, the final product in the cycle should not exceed 20 ppm above your tap water. If you have 10 ppm of nitrate in your tap water, then you do not want more than 30 ppm of nitrate in your tank.

"Where am I at then? What do I need to do?"

First of all, do not buy any kind of product that claims it removes/neutralizes ammonia! Removing the ammonia source in your tank will cause your beneficial bacteria to die off! Bad bad!

Right now, there is not enough of these beneficial bacteria in your filter, (Yes, these bacteria colonize in your filter, not in your water column.) to keep the ammoina at zero. So, since you have fish, which means you have a constant source of ammonia, you need to take action by doing large water changes! You need to do enough water changes to keep your ammonia and nitrite levels as close to 0 ppm as possible! Do not let them exceed .25 ppm!

Over time, more and more beneficial bacteria will colonize in your filter to process the ammonia and nitrite for you! Once your ammonia and nitrite remain at a constant 0 ppm for a week, without a water change, you can consider yourself cycled! Be ready for a couple weeks of solid daily water changes, as it takes time for these friendly bacteria to colonize in your filter!

I hope this clears things up a bit for you!

-FHM

 

[finalfantay85]

Thanks for that advice. The product i saw claimed to bind all the ammonia and cause it to be more easily taken up into the filter for the bacteria to digest it but if you suggest water changes then i will follow your advice i am a novice at this.
Would you recommend 50% changes once daily or more often if it's not having much of an impact on the ammonia levels?

 

[fatheadminnow]

Thanks for that advice. The product i saw claimed to bind all the ammonia and cause it to be more easily taken up into the filter for the bacteria to digest it but if you suggest water changes then i will follow your advice i am a novice at this.
Would you recommend 50% changes once daily or more often if it's not having much of an impact on the ammonia levels?

You have to do enough water changes to bring your ammonia and/or nitrite down as close to 0 ppm as possible.

So, start out with a 50% water change, wait and hour and test again. If you still have ammonia or nitrite above .25, then do another 50% or so water change, wait and hour and check again. etc...

I cannot say how much/many water changes you need to do, I can just tell you to keep the ammoina and/or nitrite below .25 ppm.

Hope this helps!

-FHM