Ammonia Problem

[Christine1014]

Hi all. My with-fish cycling (a rookie mistake) has been going pretty well for the last two weeks, except for the fact that I can't keep my ammonia levels down. Despite frequent water changes (50% once a day, or 30% twice a day, depending on my work schedule) they continue to hover around .5.

So here's my question: (and bear with me -- I was NOT a strong chemistry student!) If tap-water conditioner (I have both Stress Coat and Start Right) converts chlorine to chloramine, doesn't that process create ammonia -- the very chemical I'm trying to get rid of in the first place? Or is the ammonia created by the tap-water conditioner miniscule compared to what's already in my tank? (I'm thinking the best way around this situation might be to use bottled spring water... not the cheapest of methods but at this point I just want to get my tank cycled and keep my fish healthy!)

Stats of the tank are as follows: 44-gallon freshwater, fake plants only for now, and 14 fish - the largest of which are three Giant Danios. I know this isn't an ideal situation, but I had a smaller tank, wanted to upgrade, and the guy at the LFS told me to go ahead and put the old fish right into the new tank.... silly me knew nothing of cycling, until I found this site!

Anyway, any thoughts or lessons in water chemistry much appreciated!

 

[crazie.eddie]

Most water conditioners, like Stress Coat, bind with chlorine, this includes the chlorine contained in chloramine. If you remove the chlorine, from chloramine, the by products IS ammonia. This is probably why you are getting innacurate test results. The most common product would be to use Prime. Prime also binds with ammonia.

If you plan to cycle with fish, then just add 1 or 2 small fish per week, until the tank is fully stocked.

 

[Tolak]

You've got it right, chloramine, which most water companies use now, is a combination of chlorine & ammonia. If your water conditioner says it removes chlorine & chloramine, but says nothing about ammonia removal, it will leave you with ammonia.

Here's a link to a review of some common water conditioners; http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

Conditioners that state that they remove ammonia don't actually remove it, they convert it to ammonium, a substance harmless to fish in the concentrations found in a cycling tank, but still used the same as ammonia by your nitrifying bacteria.

Your tank will still test positive for ammonia if you are using strips, or liquid tests with one reagent. The tests with two reagents won't give a false positive for ammonia when ammonium is present.

Often the levels of chloramine are high enough to produce enough ammonia to cause problems. Understanding your water company as well as your water supply will help in this respect.

Time for a little chem 101; Sodium thiosulfate is the chemical used on declorinator to remove chlorine & chloramine, leaving you with ammonia. I buy sodium thiosufate crystals & mix my own dechlorinator for use in the summer when my water supply is generally good. It produces a slight temporary ammo spike, which my bio filtration takes care of with no problem. In foul weather my water company jacks up the additives to compensate for a strange water condition due to geographical conditions and such, so I use Prime.

Hydrometane Sulfinate converts ammonia to ammonium, it's the component, along with sodium thiosulfate, that is in water conditioners that remove ammonia along with chlorine & chloramine.

Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, or EDTA, is used to deal with heavy metals & other contaminants; it binds them up by chelation, making them harmless to fish.

Prime takes care of all of it, which any part of can show up in my water, especially during a heavy rain. The Chicago River was reversed in 1900, making it flow away from Lake Michigan, where my tap water comes from. They do this through a series of locks, which they will open during a heavy rain to prevent people's houses from flooding. Before modern environmental concerns that river was an open sewer, everything form slaughterhouse waste to solvents & heavy metals from plating & other industries got dumped in it. Many 100+-year-old factories still have sewers running into it, tracking those down is impossible without building demolition.

So, when it rains hard, they open the locks, and the river back washes into the lake. The water intakes are 5 miles out, but it still finds its way out there. The water company compensates, making a product that is safe for human consumption, but really bad at times for fish. I do through a lot of Prime in the winter & spring.

There's your chem lesson, with a little history & a touch of geography to boot.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

v interesting Tolak.

just to add that while adding extra ammonia can be an issue while your tank is cycling, don't worry about it once the cycle is done, as it's only a small amount and a well filtered tank can cope with it easily.

 

[Christine1014]

Thanks! I'm starting to get it, I think! Tolak, that link was great!
But now I have a few more questions. Will use of a product like Ammo Lock or Prime slow down the cycling process? If so, which is the lesser of the two evils -- a slow cycle, or my .5 ammonia levels? (I so wish I would have discovered this site and done the fishless cycling before relying on the LFS!) And I didn't even think about the chemicals in my water changing depending on the season, but that's probably something I should monitor. I got very lucky recently, as the ONE day I was unable to do a water change, there was problem with our local water company that resulted in a huge ammonia spike. Killed all the fish at a local pet store that did do a water change!
Anyway, thanks for the advice! I'll be spending my lunch break buying water conditioners and such...

 

[Miss Wiggle]

christ that was a lucky break!!

the ammo lock or other similar produce won't slow your cycle down, they just turn the ammonia into ammonium, the bacteria can still use it and your cycle shouldn't loose pace, it's just safer for your fish.

 

[muzzy]

v interesting Tolak.

just to add that while adding extra ammonia can be an issue while your tank is cycling, don't worry about it once the cycle is done, as it's only a small amount and a well filtered tank can cope with it easily.

Thanks for adding the Miss Wiggle!! I got a little wories then....... Im almost done and dont want to add more just as im adding the fish.

 

[Christine1014]

All this has been so helpful; thank you all!!

 

[TerraDreamer]

Great thread, very informative!