Ammonia And Ich

midnight glow · Sep 29, 2010

Hi Everyone!

Im new to all this stuff and am in need of some good advice. I bought an aquarium (95 litres) two and a half weeks ago. I ran the tank empty for a week and was told to bring a sample of my water in before i could by any fish a week later. The guy in the shop said my water was great and could start buying fish! I told him i had heard you could only put a couple of fish in to begin with but he told me i could put up to ten in to begin with. I bought 9 fish, guppies, red tail shark, albino corys, a golden algae eater and a male siamese fighter and a small red claw crab. all the fish get on fine. I lost a couple of guppies within the first week, i thought this may have been due to the fact that they were either stressed from the move or they may have been ill. Anyhow, i then lost the crab then my red tail shark got sick with 'ich' (i think). I have treated the tank but the instructions told me to remove the carbon filter. I have done this but myu ammonia levels are now on the rise and i fear that they will kill unless i get them down somehow. im not sure what to do because i dont want to put it back in in case the shark dies from ich (which incidentally he's improved greatly from treatment) nor do i want to keep it out as my ammonia is now at 1.0ppm. Does anyone know what i should do? it's been a terrible start and i really don't want to lose anything else.

fluttermoth · Sep 29, 2010

Hi midnight glow.

Your problem is that your tank isn't 'cycled'; that means you don't have the right bacteris growing in your filter to process the ammonia your fish are excreting.

The build up of ammonia will have caused the deaths of your fish and will have stressed the others, which is why they have ich.

You need to be doing BIG water changes as you need to get the ammonia down to zero; it won't harm your fish to do massive water changes of up to 90%, as long as you have something that removes the chlorine from your water.

I'm sure someone will post the link to the beginners resource centre there is on this site; I can never find it when I need it!

(Edit; Here it is; http

/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/)

But the water changes are the first thing you need to do.

Bettawhisperer · Sep 29, 2010

Do you have an API liquid test kit? Don't rely on the strips.They don't test good. I would say you need to do a 20% water change using dechlorinater in the new water to help keep the ammonia levels down. I don't know how big a 95 litre is you may be over stocking. Is the golden algae eater a pleco? If so they are very messy fish and you'll have to make sure the tank stays clean.

midnight glow · Sep 29, 2010

fluttermoth said:
Hi midnight glow.

Your problem is that your tank isn't 'cycled'; that means you don't have the right bacteris growing in your filter to process the ammonia your fish are excreting.

The build up of ammonia will have caused the deaths of your fish and will have stressed the others, which is why they have ich.

You need to be doing BIG water changes as you need to get the ammonia down to zero; it won't harm your fish to do massive water changes of up to 90%, as long as you have something that removes the chlorine from your water.

I'm sure someone will post the link to the beginners resource centre there is on this site; I can never find it when I need it!

(Edit; Here it is; http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/)

But the water changes are the first thing you need to do.

Hi, thanks for the reply, i have done two small water changes already of about 15% because i was concerned abouth the ammonia, im just worried that if i change a large amount of the water it will get rid of all the medicine in the tank that im trying to kill the ich with and that the shark will die from that. If you still think i should do this would you put the carbon filter back in again and leave out the medicine or do the water change and add more medicine leaving the carbon filter out? Your help is very much appreciated by the way!!!

Lolly123 · Sep 29, 2010

Hello,

Fluttermoth has given you what you need to know to keep your fish alive. So I'm not going to say much different tbh.

But try not to feel too bad about things, just take on board the advice on here and do a bit of reading about beginner fish keeping and you should start to understand how it all works.

Unfortunately, these posts are far too common, I feel sorry for beginners like yourself that are given absolute crap advice by people who are supposed to be 'trusted' in these fish stores...most of us have been there, until we learned otherwise.

As someone mentioned use dechlorinator when you water change, I also try and temperature match my changes to that of the tank, especially when doing large changes.

You are now in a fish-in cycle which means you are responsible for keeping your levels down, as bettawhisperer said API liquids kits are good, stay away from the strip tests, they are useless. You are going to need to be prepared to do a lot of regular water changes. Just like fluttermoth said, that is your first step.

Assaye · Sep 29, 2010

The ammonia will make the shark worse. If you are treating and needing to do large water changes, you need to re-dose the new water with the medicine. Just make sure you do the maths right and don't over dose.

Ammonia is your main concern. The guy from the shop should be sacked, frankly. Leaving the tank set up for a week or so before adding fish doesn't make it safer or better for them. He said your water was good - of course it was, you didn't have any fish in there to pollute it!

Your tank is in what we call a cycle. You have too many fish for such a newly set up tank and a pet shop that you can't trust for advice. Some of the fish are really bad choices for that tank and the crab is a definite no from my point of view as they are well known for killing fish, espcially at night when the fish are resting. The algae eater and shark will both get aggressive and out grow the tank, and you could well find the guppies and fighter don't get on.

Your main task is to get that ammonia down. Get yout own ammonia and nitrite test kits (liquid, NOT strips or dip tests) and test the ammonia and nitrite twice a day. Do as large a water change as you need to get the ammonia reading zero - that may mean doing 75% or more water at a time. Make sure you turn the equipment off and let heaters cool before you change the water and make sure you add water that is the same temperature as the tank to avoid shock. Always add a good quality water conditioner that removes chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. With large water changes, dose at 1.5 x the stated dose and mix well.

In short, what happens in a new tank is that the filter (being brand new) doesn't have any natural, friendly bacteria living in it yet. These are slow growing bacteria that are responsible for keeping the water clean - the same kind of bacteria that you get on underwater rocks and in river beds in the wild. These bacteria will only start to grow if they have a food source, which is the waste the fish produce. This is where the ammonia comes from. It takes a long time (often over a month) to get enough of the right kind of bacteria and until then, you need to test the water and remove the excess ammonia (and later nitrite). The more fish you have, the more ammonia, the more water changes and the more danger for the fish.

These chemicals (ammonia and nitrite) are killers so you need to take this risk very seriously. They will weaken the fish, do a lot of damage and also make the fish more prone to other diseases (such as ich). Treating the ammonia problem is your first responsibility.

You also need to think very, very hard about your stock. The shark will get to 6 inches (perhaps more) and will become aggressive. These fish typically need 200 litre tanks. Same for the algae eater - he could reach 10 inches and will also get aggressive. The crab could prove to be a killer and they need specialist tanks with dedicated land areas that come out of the water. The guppies might be fragile but are the best fish to continue your cycle with and will not out-grow the tank. Bettas (fighter fish) often don't get on with guppies (or indeed other fish) and are well known for being problems in community tanks because they get stressed very easily around other fish, they need quite warm water, they often get bullied and nipped and they are bullies themselves quite a lot of the time. A great fish for a small, dedicated tank - 20-30 litres.

You are currently in a fish-in cycle. Have a read of the resources here and consider your stock. In the meantime, do two 75% water changes a day and get yourself your own test kits. Don't listen to that shop - you've been lied to and miss-sold. It's people like that who are responsible for so many pet fish being abused and we're just glad you've found this website before it's too late.

Good luck!

midnight glow · Sep 29, 2010

Lolly123 said:
Hello,

Fluttermoth has given you what you need to know to keep your fish alive. So I'm not going to say much different tbh.

But try not to feel too bad about things, just take on board the advice on here and do a bit of reading about beginner fish keeping and you should start to understand how it all works.

Unfortunately, these posts are far too common, I feel sorry for beginners like yourself that are given absolute crap advice by people who are supposed to be 'trusted' in these fish stores...most of us have been there, until we learned otherwise.

As someone mentioned use dechlorinator when you water change, I also try and temperature match my changes to that of the tank, especially when doing large changes.

You are now in a fish-in cycle which means you are responsible for keeping your levels down, as bettawhisperer said API liquids kits are good, stay away from the strip tests, they are useless. You are going to need to be prepared to do a lot of regular water changes. Just like fluttermoth said, that is your first step.

Thanks, i do have the liquid kits, the nitrite and nitrate levels etc are fine but from what i have read they are meant to rise after the ammonia level eventually drops?? (so ive read). Yes i am annoyed with the bloke in the shop, probably just wanted the sale, anyhow i am not getting any more until the cycle is finshed which should take somewhere in the region of 6-8 weeks? i do have a dechlorinator and baterlife (friendly bacteria) so will add to the water. Will such a big change stress the fish?

fluttermoth · Sep 29, 2010

No, big changes won't stress the fish; not as much as the ammonia anyway!

I'd do the water changes first and foremost. Fish don't usually die from ich.

This is what I'd suggest;

Do a big water change and add the carbon to remove any left over medication. Then re-medicate.

Lolly123 · Sep 29, 2010

Assaye has basically given you a great overview of the problems and potential problems as well as the actions you need to take in order for you to get through this awkward start.

Obviously as stated the main thing you need to concentrate on is your levels and keeping them down in order for your fish to survive first and foremost. Water changes are a must, you are not going to get rid of the ammonia any other way at this point in time, dont be scared of doing them.

But eventually I really think you need to change your stocking. I had an experience with a red tailed shark in my community aquarium in the early days of my fish keeping, well needless to say, he was rehomed very shortly after. I also had a siamese fighter fish in my community tank some years ago, until the day when I woke up and found him completely stripped of flesh behind one of the plants. I dont mean to scare you or overwhelm you but your stocking is one of the most important things you have to focus on once you are done with your current cycle. I found that out the hard way, it's never nice to feel responsible for the death of a fish due to desire or lack of research.

Some of the advice may sound harsh, please dont take it personally, it's not in any way meant to cause offence. But hopefully you can avoid some of these mistakes by consulting this forum, like you have already done

SlyPolak · Sep 29, 2010

Hi, these guys/gals have been giving you GREAT advice... what I dont understand is why people jump to meds. at the first signs of ich... they could do more harm than good if you have sensitive fish and have ammonia present..... why not just try the heat method?? I have gotten fish with ich on more than a few occasions (sadly) and have NEVER used meds....... raise your temp. up to aroud 86/87 degrees Fahrenheit ( SLOWLY ) over a few days.... keep it up that high for about two weeks with extra aeration and your ich problem should disappear...... now you haveto stick with the water changes because of the ammonia present...... another old wives tale I hear EVERYWHERE is that stress causes ich! BULLLLLLLL.... Ich is NOT always present , yes stress like ammonia and overstocking will make your fish more suseptable to illnesses but will not cause ich.... if you sadly purchased fish with ich (like many of us have before) and you have no room for a Q-tak.. then it does NOT MATTER if your conditions are prestine with a fully matured tank.. your fish WILL GET ICH........

heat
heat
HEAT

Assaye · Sep 29, 2010

Another great way to combat ich is to black-out the tank with a blanket and turn the lights off. Ich is a parasite and being in the dark is reputed to speed up the life-cycle. Worked wonders when I had ich.

fluttermoth · Sep 29, 2010

Oh, moonlight glow; I forgot to mention; carbon doesn't remove ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate; it'll only remove the medications; so if you don't want to use it, it won't make any difference to your water quality.