Advice Needed - Beginner With Dying Fish

[Peter Blake]

Hi all,

First time fish keeper, so learning all the time - could do with a sanity check on what we're doing following a couple of deaths in the last week.

We've had the tank set up for around 6 weeks (2 weeks cycling and 4 with fish). Here are the specs for the tank:

Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 25
pH: 7.2
KH: 6
GH: 16 (extremely hard water area)
*Temperature: room temperature

Tank Size: 19l
Setup: rounded stones, no fine gravel, 2 plants - some algae starting to appear on the stones.
Tank Inhabitants (numbers, sizes etc): x4 white cloud mountain minnows (have been as many as 5 in there)
How long the tank has been set up: 6 weeks
Frequency and amount of routine water changes: 20% every couple of days since the problems started
What you feed , how much and how often: flake food, once a day (think we were overfeeding a little, so have scaled back the volume recently but not the frequency)
Water conditioner used: Tapsafe
New fish or plants added to the tank? Were they quarantined: x1 anacris, x1 fountain plant (although this one is not doing as well)
Medications used: none, as yet


Filtration details:
Type of filter (external, internal, under gravel): internal, over-the-waterline filter - water gets sucked up from the bottom of the tank, passed into a filter tray above the waterline, and back into the tank via a waterfall (so plenty of oxygen)
Maintenance details: have gently cleaned the sponges a couple of times in aquarium water to get rid of some grit, etc

So, the problems:
Last weekend our first fish died, despite our best efforts. The nitrites levels were higher then (between 1-5), and the timeline of his decline (lethargy, gasping for air, refusing food, balance problems, pop-eye) suggest he got ammonia poisoning. The levels in the tank are now stable, which makes me think the filter is now more matured than it was. Since then, two new WCMMs have been introduced (we read that they do best in schools of five or more).

Yesterday, a second fish went from no visible symptoms to death in around 24 hours. This one started declining in a similar manner to the first one - hanging around the area of the tank with the most oxygen - however his descent was much more rapid. He didn't display lethargy at any point until the end, when he was also hanging around the top of the tank. Then his balance went, but he did not get pop-eye. Closer inspection after he had did revealed a some rough / raised scales, some redness of the skin and some tiny white spots, which I've read are classic symptoms of a parasite infection.

So, this leads me to my questions:
- Are the two deaths related (linked to a common cause)?
- If the second death was a parasite, what are the chances the remaining 4 fish are infected?
- How long does it take between parasite infection and symptoms starting to show?
- Was the rapid decline of our second fish (around 24 hours) unusually fast?
- Is the water GH (16) too high for even these adaptable fish? How should this be brought under control?
- Is there anything I have described which sounds incorrect? (obviously the tank is quite small - we're going to upgrade to a new one asap, however I want to make sure that this is definitely the major problem - there is no point getting a bigger tank if the water in our area is going to harm the fish regardless)

Apologies for the long ramble, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Pete

 

[Greg_DS]

Have you/do you test for ammonia?? Just noticed it wasn't in your results at the top.

Your tank wouldn't have been cycled after 2 weeks and 20% water changes every few days wouldn't be enough, just at the end of a fish in cycle myself and at points was doing a 50% change daily, you really do need to keep on top of it.

Also I'm guessing you use those Test strips?? Don't, get one of these : http/www.amazon.co.uk/API-Freshwater-Master-Test-Kit/dp/B000255NCI

 

[Peter Blake]

Have you/do you test for ammonia?? Just noticed it wasn't in your results at the top.

Your tank wouldn't have been cycled after 2 weeks and 20% water changes every few days wouldn't be enough, just at the end of a fish in cycle myself and at points was doing a 50% change daily, you really do need to keep on top of it.

Also I'm guessing you use those Test strips?? Don't, get one of these : http/www.amazon.co.uk/API-Freshwater-Master-Test-Kit/dp/B000255NCI

Thanks - yes, I do use the strips, but to be honest I recognise that they are not great. I'll certainly upgrade now.

The strips do not have a test for ammonia - my limited understanding of it lead me to believe that nitrite levels were indicative of ammonia, but if that's not the case I'll look into it.

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Greg_DS]

I'm by no means an expert, just sharing my own similar experience, but I would say those test strips give poor readings, you are probably getting inaccurate readings on the nitrite anyway.

I would advise firstly doing a good size water change, maybe as high as 2/3rds the volume, get the kit I linked you too and changing your TapSafe to Seachem Prime : http/www.seapets.co.uk/products/aquarium-supplies/aquarium-treatments-fish-medicines/tropical-aquarium-treatments-and-fish-medicines/freshwater-conditioners/water-condition-improvers/seachem-prime-250ml.html?ref=googlebase

Prime helps with the ammonia as well as dechlorinates your water.

Also read this : http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/224306-fish-in-cycling/

Hope that helps bud!!

 

[Peter Blake]

I'm by no means an expert, just sharing my own similar experience, but I would say those test strips give poor readings, you are probably getting inaccurate readings on the nitrite anyway.

I would advise firstly doing a good size water change, maybe as high as 2/3rds the volume, get the kit I linked you too and changing your TapSafe to Seachem Prime : http/www.seapets.co.uk/products/aquarium-supplies/aquarium-treatments-fish-medicines/tropical-aquarium-treatments-and-fish-medicines/freshwater-conditioners/water-condition-improvers/seachem-prime-250ml.html?ref=googlebase

Prime helps with the ammonia as well as dechlorinates your water.

Also read this : http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/224306-fish-in-cycling/

Hope that helps bud!!

Thanks again, I'd done a 50% water change this morning. Will keep doing 30%-40% daily until the levels stabilize.

It's becoming apparent that I've cycled the tank wrong and these fish are suffering the consequences of that, which isn't great. The horrible truth seems to be that the tank is going to need ammonia to cycle correctly, but that will ultimately just harm the fish in the meantime!

We'll try to turn it around and hope that the decline in the tank isn't permanent for the fish in there at the moment. Pretty depressing though, this was supposed to be a relaxing hobby!

 

[Greg_DS]

Done the same thing myself, after much reading pulled it back, I imagine many others on here did at first as well.

Not 100% sure if I read this wrong "The horrible truth seems to be that the tank is going to need ammonia to cycle correctly, but that will ultimately just harm the fish in the meantime!" but if you mean youre going to add it yourself don't, thats for fish-less cycle, if you add any you'll kill them. I may have picked that up wrong but just double checking.

Couple of weeks of daily water changes, tests etc. then you can kick back and enjoy it, usually just need 1 20% change per week afterwards.

 

[mike455555]

cut back on the feeding a little... more food the fish eat the more they poo.. the more ammonia there is in the tank maybe feed every 2-3 days? (fish can last a week + without any food - i was told by my LFS, there normally good on advice) 19L is a small tank. small tanks are harder to keep as ammonia and any pollutants cant be dispersed in the water as much. iv just finished cycling my 20l. maybe get a few floating plants to suck up some nitrates? while doing the cycle?

 

[Peter Blake]

Done the same thing myself, after much reading pulled it back, I imagine many others on here did at first as well.

Not 100% sure if I read this wrong "The horrible truth seems to be that the tank is going to need ammonia to cycle correctly, but that will ultimately just harm the fish in the meantime!" but if you mean youre going to add it yourself don't, thats for fish-less cycle, if you add any you'll kill them. I may have picked that up wrong but just double checking.

Couple of weeks of daily water changes, tests etc. then you can kick back and enjoy it, usually just need 1 20% change per week afterwards.

No, definitely not going to add it myself - that would be fairly reckless! My point was that there needs to be some ammonia in there to build up the bacteria (from the fish), but ultimately that seems to be harming them. But I'll just let nature take its course now - daily changes and hopefully the four remaining fish are not badly affected already and can improve with time (although I do have concerns about one, he's hanging about the high-oxygen areas even after a change - I fear he won't be with us in a couple of days).

Glad to hear that others have made the mistake too (in a reassured, not macabre way!) - all part of the learning process I suppose.

Also, thanks for that forum thread about fish-in cycling - very helpful and reassuring to know that's what I've been doing. The critical mistake I made seems to have been cleaning the filter sponge - think that has set the cycling process back a couple of weeks.

 

[Peter Blake]

cut back on the feeding a little... more food the fish eat the more they poo.. the more ammonia there is in the tank maybe feed every 2-3 days? (fish can last a week + without any food - i was told by my LFS, there normally good on advice) 19L is a small tank. small tanks are harder to keep as ammonia and any pollutants cant be dispersed in the water as much. iv just finished cycling my 20l. maybe get a few floating plants to suck up some nitrates? while doing the cycle?

Yeah, 19l is small - looking to upgrade soon, but want to get this one stable first.

Cutting back on the feeding is good advice, thanks - we'll move to every two days and see how we get on. I'm surprised to hear they can survive a week without food - Probably won't be trying that if I'm honest!!

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

You mentioned that the substrate is rounded stones and no fine gravel. One issue with using large types of substrate is that there are a lot of voids created between the stones which will allow fish waste to drop between and become trapped. This can quickly cause large ammonia build up. The finer the substrate the less waste can get trapped in it. Sand is one of the best, as all waste sits on top and can be easily siphoned off.

 

[mike455555]

im surprised they can last a week... iv not tryed it i think the longest mine have gone without food is 4 days

 

[fluttermoth]

Yeah, 19l is small - looking to upgrade soon, but want to get this one stable first.

Cutting back on the feeding is good advice, thanks - we'll move to every two days and see how we get on. I'm surprised to hear they can survive a week without food - Probably won't be trying that if I'm honest!!

A 19l tank is going to be very, very hard to stabilise. If you think you might upgrade in the future, I'd do it sooner rather than later. Also, WCMM are a very active fish, even though they're only small, so your tank is, in all honesty, too small for them anyway.

im surprised they can last a week... iv not tryed it i think the longest mine have gone without food is 4 days

Fish can easily go without food for at least two weeks; don't forget that they're cold blooded; most of the food mammals eat goes towards maintaining body temperature, so their need for food is far, far less than a hot blooded animal's would be.
Most aquarium fish are massively overfed compared to their wild counterparts.

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

Yeah, 19l is small - looking to upgrade soon, but want to get this one stable first.

Cutting back on the feeding is good advice, thanks - we'll move to every two days and see how we get on. I'm surprised to hear they can survive a week without food - Probably won't be trying that if I'm honest!!

A 19l tank is going to be very, very hard to stabilise. If you think you might upgrade in the future, I'd do it sooner rather than later. Also, WCMM are a very active fish, even though they're only small, so your tank is, in all honesty, too small for them anyway.

im surprised they can last a week... iv not tryed it i think the longest mine have gone without food is 4 days

Fish can easily go without food for at least two weeks; don't forget that they're cold blooded; most of the food mammals eat goes towards maintaining body temperature, so their need for food is far, far less than a hot blooded animal's would be.
Most aquarium fish are massively overfed compared to their wild counterparts.

I concur with Fluttermouth. I often deliberately don't feed my fish for a few days, as I believe it is good for them. Even more so with cold water spices. A lot of wild fish go months without food, simply because it is not available i.e. throughout the winter in Europe.

 

[mike455555]

i only ever feed mine when i remember to be honest... which is about every 4 days or less

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

i only ever feed mine when i remember to be honest... which is about every 4 days or less

LOL!