A Question For The Betta Breeders In Here..

[TubbyLaLa]

This may be a really stupid question but my brain was having a ponder and I know very little about fish breeding/genetics but am always willing to learn. I can understand that to get the colour/fin shape you want that you would breed together fish from the same spawning (as I have read on posts here) But everything I learnt about genetics and breeding (non fish mind you)shows that to decrease the risk of harmful genes especially recessive ones being passed on you would breed two creatures that are similar genetics (colour/fin) that are not directly related. I would be really interested in a breeders explanation of why two fish from the same spawning are mated?

 

[lilfishie]

with bettas i believe spawning siblings improves the gene, like if your after a certain colour, and breed siblings that both carry that colour gene then you'll probably get a majority of the fry being that colour, same with tail types i think, although i have never or intend to for a long while yet breed. HTH

 

[TubbyLaLa]

I can totally understand why you would breed that way for the colour gene was just wondering if the fish carried a less beneficial gene also- would it not be better to mate fish with the same colour gene from different spawns? Just inquisitive, I have seen a lot of posts with fry with mutations such as conjoined fish and I was wondering how common crossing fry from the same spawn was? I am in no way thinking about breeding myself only just got into bettas and although the bug has bitten I have soooo much to learn yet before I even think of getting into having females and spawning!!!

 

[K.J.]

Inbreeding after several generations can be a problem, take guppies. Many are weak due to that. I maybe wonder if you take one male and one female from the same spawn, mate them with someone a few generations down and mate the fry together. Can it make the lines less pure but stronger? Sorry to hijack your thread, been curious about this as well.

 

[TubbyLaLa]

Hijaking is fine by me I am a science teacher by trade (although taking some time off! Yay) It just surprised me that inbreeding seemed to crop up a lot, with the occurance of mutated offspring. I can see how creating a specific colour/fin line with diverse genetics to promote health would require a house with tanks covering every wall! I was just curious at how common a practice it was, and for how many generations siblings would be bred to produce the frequency of consistency of colour/fins types required to establish a breeding line. The churning in my brain started off from a legaity of breeding guppies thread and someone buying sibling bettas from aquabid to breed. (sorry far too late at night for me to search and find names but thanks for getting the grey matter working )
As to your question KJ if the someone further down had different genetic lines then it would presumably make the offspring stronger but it may comprimise the colour/fin type if their genetics are heterzygous not homozygous for the colour/fin trait (again not a boff on fish genetics but I presume heterozygous and homozygous still apply) and whether the desired gene for fin/colour is dominant or recessive.
(it is late and if I am talking drivel please educate me! A teacher should never stop learning! )

 

[channing]

to clear some things up quick. someone correct me if i have it backwards. inbreeding is say brother to sister. line breeding is son to grandmother . i think. reasons to do it better chances of same color etc. its okay for a few times if you bred only the strongest and healthiest. when your line gets weak you need to find a fish that is related but not to close say 3 or 4 gens off. say a half sister to bring some new genes and some of the same. the problem with having a line then bring in a totally different one you can ruin all of your work. never ever breed weak fish. im trying to find some good websites that are not confusing.. so if anyone knows of some let me know.

 

[zoekin8yg]

inbreeding is technically to any relative. It initially improves a trait but eventually doesnt, once you have got to about F3 you'd branch out to try and avoid inherant defects. Sylvia is very knowledgable on geneticsy things if you want to ask her.

 

[K.J.]

Seems like the best way to keepthe line strong would be to breed one to the great grand/grandparent, wouldn't it? Then could you start the whole lineage over again and do the same?

 

[zoekin8yg]

Im not awake enough to be sure but its possible, there should be a lot of info on it online

 

[lisie]

Linebreeding is just another word for inbreeding to make it sound better and more professional. Because betta spawns are often so large, it makes it quite easy to improve a line with related fish. You may have two fish that have the color you really want to breed for, but their finnage might not be perfect. But if you breed them, they very well may produce offspring with that same color but also better finnage. From that point you can breed two siblings, or breed back to a parent. Inbreeding is really just a way to improve a line. You want to start with the best fish you can find, and using each of their strong points, work towards perfection through their offspring. Besides, if you outcross every time... then that line isn't really *your* line, not your own accomplishment. It is, however, recommended to outcross every 3 or 4 generations to avoid problems associated with inbreeding too much.

 

[bUcky]

imbreeding is solved by culling, if there is a problem with the fish do not spawn him again or it wll get worse. culling for even the smallest defect will make you line stronger not weeker. Of course you have to outcross the line to new genetics every 6-8th generation.

 

[TubbyLaLa]

Interesting...I will be doing some research online but it is great to get different peoples experiences. The selective breeding of animals to produce a specific trait was a hobby horse of mine at Uni and has always been of interest. I have been having a holiday from working (I am only 30 but seeing as I could do it I decided to have a bit of returement now ) I guess a four year holiday is long but it gives me time to explore things
It just seems that some types of fish are particularly prone to problems. The poor guppies do seem to have many weaknesses. But I guess with their willingness to breed, and the speed at which they do it, and that they are a very popular fish as they look pretty, makes the problems more noticable!
ETA - Lisie I thought that outcrossing everytime would result in a better yet far slower process, also it follows you would have to breed all the outcrosses yourself to claim the line as *yours*, (good point, well made by you), but then you could look out at the world from your palace made of tanks and say, "Hello world I made this!", with a gorgeous glowing fishie in a tank in your hands!!!