80%water Change?

[kniesh]

Hi. I have posted in the emergencies about my problems with white spot and salt. I m now planning a big water change, is 80% going to be too much? I dont know what else to do now, still no one eating ant it looks like the swim bladders are not in great condition as they are starting to swim upside down etc...

 

[kelp]

That's definitely way too much. If you need to change a lot of water, do it in a matter of days instead of at one time.

 

[nmonks]

80% is fine PROVIDED the pH, hardness, and salinity (if relevant) are more or less the same. Big temperature changes must be avoided as well (a couple of degrees C won't hurt). When fish aren't well, doing a big water change can be very useful. BUT, you want to pin down what the problems are first, and then act accordingly. If you're treating for whitespot, then doing big (any) water changes during the course of treatment will dilute the medication, preventing the cure.

Cheers, Neale

PS. The reason 10-25% water changes are recommended in most books and my many experienced fishkeepers -- myself included -- is that changing small water amounts won't cause problems if the pH, hardness, etc of the new water isn't the same. Freshwater fish can (usually) cope with small water chemistry changes. But in theory, if the new water is identical to the old water, then you could do 100% water changes and everything would be fine.

 

[kniesh]

Thx, yeah I am treating with salt though and it appears to be making matters worse. Since It started going in a couple of days ago the fish have definately deteriated badly. I am lost as what to do now.

 

[Gatorbait]

I agree 100% with nmonks.

Under normal circumstances large scale wc's like 80% are fine,imo. I see a lot of people on this forum that say 20% at most at a time but I don't understand why? I sometimes do 2 50%-80% wc's a week, time permitting. Clean and fresh water is the best thing going for your fish.

 

[SamUK]

i thought a good way to beat white spot was to gradually up the temp to 30 degrees (get the temp confirmed by the wolf or something) and leave it that way for a few days.


it cant survive at that temp or something.


i can second the water change shud be fine. water doesnt actually carry much thats useful it all in the filter.

 

[nmonks]

By the way, why in heaven's sake are you using salt? There's NO reason to use salt in a freshwater aquarium unless you are keeping brackish water fish. It makes no difference to disease organisms like whitespot at the low concentrations suitable for freshwater fish. Furthermore, many freshwater fish are intolerant of salt, particularly those adapted to very specific water conditions, for example softwater cichlids like discus and Rift Valley cichlids such as mbuna.

When treating whitespot, buy a proper medication, remove ALL carbon from the filter (if you were conned into buying carbon!), and then dose the aquarium. Do not do water changes once you've dosed the tank.

Cheers, Neale

 

[kniesh]

Thx, I will try and find the link I was given for the salt information. have just done a 70% water change, looks too late tho already had casualties. I used the medication and it seemed to make no odds so I followed this links advice. I will post it now just got to find it.

BTW it wasnt a marine salt, it was actually table salt.

http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

Thats the link I was given. Thx for ur help.

 

[nmonks]

BTW it wasnt a marine salt, it was actually table salt.

From bad to worse... table salt contains iodine compounds used to keep the salt free-flowing even when it absorbs moisture. These compounds are toxic to aquarium fish. Non-iodised cooking salt can be used safely for dips, but regular cooking/table salt should never be used for any aquaristic purposes whatsoever.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Gatorbait]

BTW it wasnt a marine salt, it was actually table salt.

From bad to worse... table salt contains iodine compounds used to keep the salt free-flowing even when it absorbs moisture. These compounds are toxic to aquarium fish. Non-iodised cooking salt can be used safely for dips, but regular cooking/table salt should never be used for any aquaristic purposes whatsoever.

Cheers, Neale

I've always used table salt for every fish I've ever had including loaches, catfish and piranhas. Never had a problem yet.

 

[nmonks]

And there are people who play Russian Roulette and never lost a game yet. Doesn't make it safe.

It is too tiresome to go over this issue again and again and again, but very briefly, the addition of salt (of any kind) to a freshwater aquarium is a con. Pure and simple. If you want to waste money on the stuff, and reduce the heathiness of your fish at the same time, then go ahead. Salt was used way back when because it reduces nitrite and nitrate toxicity. This was useful because filters were of poor quality compared to modern ones, and people believed that the fewer water changes, the better. We now don't believe this, and there are no situations where the addition of salt to reduce nitrite and nitrate toxicity would be better than using a proper filter or performing a water change.

As for killing parasites, etc., to do so, the concentration has to be substational. At these silly "teaspoon per gallon" levels the salt has zero -- repeat ZERO -- effect on parasites and pathogens. For a beneficial effect, you need about 25% seawater, or about 10 grammes per litre (~ 1.2 ounces per gallon). That's a lot of salt. While some freshwater fish will tolerate this level just fine, anything adapted to specific water conditions -- blackwater fish, Amazonian fish, mbuna for example -- will get sick and eventually die. Salt doesn't magically kill parasites, it kills them by osmotic stress, and by the time the parasites are being stressed, so is the fish. That's why a short, sharp dip in a saltwater bath works so well at healing freshwater fish -- the parasites die before the fish. 5 minutes in that bath will help the fish, 50 minutes will kill it.

Freshwater fish have evolved to live in waters with no salt in it. The golden rule in fishkeeping is to provide water conditions as close as possible to what a fish experiences in the wild. For 99% of the freshwater fish sold as pets, this doesn't require salt at all.

Cheers, Neale

I've always used table salt for every fish I've ever had including loaches, catfish and piranhas. Never had a problem yet.

 

[Gatorbait]

And there are people who play Russian Roulette and never lost a game yet. Doesn't make it safe.

It is too tiresome to go over this issue again and again and again, but very briefly, the addition of salt (of any kind) to a freshwater aquarium is a con. Pure and simple. If you want to waste money on the stuff, and reduce the heathiness of your fish at the same time, then go ahead. Salt was used way back when because it reduces nitrite and nitrate toxicity. This was useful because filters were of poor quality compared to modern ones, and people believed that the fewer water changes, the better. We now don't believe this, and there are no situations where the addition of salt to reduce nitrite and nitrate toxicity would be better than using a proper filter or performing a water change.

As for killing parasites, etc., to do so, the concentration has to be substational. At these silly "teaspoon per gallon" levels the salt has zero -- repeat ZERO -- effect on parasites and pathogens. For a beneficial effect, you need about 25% seawater, or about 10 grammes per litre (~ 1.2 ounces per gallon). That's a lot of salt. While some freshwater fish will tolerate this level just fine, anything adapted to specific water conditions -- blackwater fish, Amazonian fish, mbuna for example -- will get sick and eventually die. Salt doesn't magically kill parasites, it kills them by osmotic stress, and by the time the parasites are being stressed, so is the fish. That's why a short, sharp dip in a saltwater bath works so well at healing freshwater fish -- the parasites die before the fish. 5 minutes in that bath will help the fish, 50 minutes will kill it.

Freshwater fish have evolved to live in waters with no salt in it. The golden rule in fishkeeping is to provide water conditions as close as possible to what a fish experiences in the wild. For 99% of the freshwater fish sold as pets, this doesn't require salt at all.

Cheers, Neale

I've always used table salt for every fish I've ever had including loaches, catfish and piranhas. Never had a problem yet.

Yea, I agree that this issue has been debated to death on every forum I've ever been to.

I respect your opinion but mine just differs is all. I've done it for more than 20 years so I think that would take your Russian Roulette equation out. I'm not wasting money as it's cheaper than most meds are and that's what I use. Succesfully, I might add.

However, I know it's frowned upon by many so I don't usually suggest it to others but I will continue to always use it.

Every body of water has some concentration of it in there. Freshwater isn't 100% fresh water.

As you've mentioned, this has been debated to death and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[nmonks]

My guess would be that you're simply a good fishkeeper. I'm sure you spot problems, perform water changes, use the right foods, and so on... and that's why your fish are doing well. The addition of small amounts of salt is almost certainly irrelevant. It's hard to see how tiny salt concentrations could be beneficial.

And yes, freshwaters aren't "pure water", but the salts they contain aren't table salt either.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Marshall..]

If it is having a bad effect on your fish.Don't do it.You say the fish deteriorated since adding the salt so remove it as soon as possible with good water changes.

 

[kniesh]

Just a small update. I lost 4 fish in total yesterday. 3 Clown Loaches and a Silver Dollar. I done the water change which will have removed mst the salt and I will do some more small ones over the coing week. The fish have perked up a lot this morning and were actually eating just before which was a big relief. The Clown Loaches and the Silver Dollars were the only ones showing up white spots however the Silver Dollars seemed ok after the chemical treatment the Loaches just couldnt shift it hence me usingthe salt alternative. I dont think I will use it again, hopefully I wont have to. Thx for all ur help, much appreciated.