60Lt Planted Tank

[sorgan]

A few weeks ago a mod ( can't remember who) came to the salty side and started preaching about the joys of green (ahem)
After a short banter exchange said mod got my mind going, how cool would underwater gardening be! So I started the lengthy and unpleasant job of emptying my marine nano tank.
A good scrub and a journey to lfs later and I've got -
Api fresh water master test kit,
Fertiliser substrate in a bucket,
Gravely substrate in a bag,
Co2 starter kit (it's a can, a tube, a 1 way valve and an upside down boiled egg cup.)
Some stuff in a bottle the lfs said to get,
New filter
And 4 plants (Anubis? Java fern? And 2 others)

Now I'm not so clued up on freshwater fish, I have a betta in a small tank but I used some kind if bio orbs to cycle that tank, problem is lfs hasn't got said orbs, only this bottle of stuff I am slightly suspicious about but ho hum.

So fertilizery stuff went in, gravel on top. Filter and heater are in and tank is filled, plants planted and Anubis is tied to a rock (lfs reccomendation)
Lights on and co2 thingy rigged up.
Then to (apparently) start my cycle a cap full of the bottled stuff.

Now question time, will plants help a cycle? If this bottled stuff is as dodgy as it looks what else can I use to cycle with? What kind of stats am I looking to see?

Now this may sound silly but in marines we watch our stats like hawks as nitrate kills corals quick, will to much ammonia, nitrite or nitrate harm the plants or are they only going to be a problem to fish later.

And what are good fish to put in a planted tank? Ta much all.

 

[SuperColey1]

This can go one of two ways for you.

When reefers start on planted setups they either maintain their reef ways/routines/beliefs and struggle from thereon or they seperate the 2 into totally different animals. As different as a dog from a cat.

You will pretty quickly find we tend not to bother with test kits too much (if at all.)

So to answer a few questions.

Nitrate can be disaster in reef. It is ignored in planted (within reason.) Some planted folks may add up to 60ppm of nitrate and not even flinch. Their fish don't flinch either (at least as far as we can tell)

Also phosphate. We want phosphate (again within reason)

So what have you got and what to do with it.

You have started on a firm basis. you have a nutrient rich substrate. How good it is we don't know but its a good start. Then the cap on top.

You have a few plants and they are easy to maintain from your description

Then we come to the CO2. Personally I would disconnect this for now and pack it away for a while. Try and start without CO2 and let things move slowly forward.

CO2 speeds growth up but also speeds problems up. A small algae problem will suddenly turn into an infestation. Whilst it is slow you have more reaction time.

Now another transition from reef to planted is lighting. We don't need the lighthouse/beacon levels in planted. We can aim for 1WPG at the lower end up to a 'realistic' maximum of 2-3WPG.

By realistic I mean that there are those who will go much higher and still have success but light is the key player in planted and the higher you go the faster the growth rate and therefore the more critical nutrient and CO2 distribution is.

So in summary start with lower light, no CO2 and small ferts. I am guessing what you have been given is only trace elements and not containing N and P. A common failure of the commercial market who create the product knowing that many fear N and P.

Cycling is a tricky and much argued subject. A heavily planted tank basically will not cycle. In reality it will but not noticeably. It will be known as a silent cycle.

However you have 4 plants and therefore not heavily planted. The bottle you have will either be a bacteria additive or ammonia additive to start the bacteria off.

Add this in and then monitor the Ammonia and nitrite. Once you start getting nitrite readings keep checking ammonia readings until they reach zero. Once they reach zero do the nitrate tests. Of course we are aiming at firstly getting positive ammonia, then positive nitrite, then positive nitrate, then we want ammonia to reduce back to trace and nitrite back to trace at which point the cycle is over.

The Nitrate test isn't really important but just will let you know what level is in the tank.

Once the fish are in and assuming you stay with 4 plants I don't think you'll be needing that fertiliser bottle. Fish waste and excess food should be enough for a few plants.

AC

 

[sorgan]

Thanks much! Nitrate and phosphate wanted! Hells bells you lot are odd!
I want to put more plants (grass and moss) into the tank later but my lfs advised planting in stages which tbh seemed fair.
So I will start testing today for the signs of cycle (why can't it be easy like a marine cycle) and hope for an ammonia reading but not to be to worried if it's not there is that right?
Oh and my lfs gave me a bottle of 'leaf' food that seems to be jam packed with things that would nuke my reef, I'm guessing this is good.

 

[sorgan]

Ok just tested my water. Ammonia and nitrite are 0 but nitrate is 20-30, if this was my reef I would be panicking but nitrates are good, right?

Now I don't imagine this means the tank has cycled but it must be doing something, would can I do to help it along? Could I bung some food in to create waste or should I leave it the he'll alone.
I forgot what fun a new tank is.

 

[SuperColey1]

I want to put more plants (grass and moss) into the tank later but my lfs advised planting in stages which tbh seemed fair.

We would suggest plant heavy from the start. A heavily planted tank with healthy plants will help defeat algae. Algae is the curse in planted not nutrients Problem being that algae are a plant and also consume nutrients. We have no definitive answer why havily planted succesful tanks are virtually algae free but it does work.

So I will start testing today for the signs of cycle (why can't it be easy like a marine cycle) and hope for an ammonia reading but not to be to worried if it's not there is that right?

In a non planted I would guess it is pretty similar to a reef cycle. however plants consume ammonia for the N content and therefore its a little different.

Oh and my lfs gave me a bottle of 'leaf' food that seems to be jam packed with things that would nuke my reef, I'm guessing this is good.

I'm guessing its just trace elements. (metals) without N and P. It is for people such as yourselves that the manufacturers deliberatley leave out N and P. They are pandering to your fears and therefore you buy their product rather than ones that do contain N and P.

The thing is they will tell you the fish waste and left over food supply the N and P so you only need the ingredients in the bottle. The reality is that trace is in the fish waste and left over food too They make what will sell to most and then promote old 'myths' if it sells their product.

The reality is this:
A - If your tank doesn't need N and P addition then it more than likely (99%) will definately not need traces.
Traces means exactly that. hardly anything is needed.

B - If anything needs adding it will be N and P. NPK are the macros. This means they are needed in much much higher ratio than traces.

C - Finally and this is for heavy planted aquaria with mid to high lighting and CO2, will need a full dosing regime of macros and micros.

So dependent on your light you may need to add some ferts but without CO2 running a slow system while you learn the bottle you have can go into the same cupboard as the CO2 kit

AC

Ok just tested my water. Ammonia and nitrite are 0 but nitrate is 20-30, if this was my reef I would be panicking but nitrates are good, right?

Yes. check your water board report. You may find that your Nitrate may already be 20 when you put it in from the tap. Mine is 12 average.

Now I don't imagine this means the tank has cycled but it must be doing something, would can I do to help it along? Could I bung some food in to create waste or should I leave it the he'll alone.

What was the product the LFS gave you. I guess it wasn't tap water conditioner as you already use that in your reef (I think) and would know what that was. Is it an ammonia additive? If so then that is the 'kickstart'

Personally I would get more plants, Let it run for a few days checking the ammonia/nitrite readings and then add your first (and hardiest) fish.

AC

 

[stevereade]

What is this cycle business??? I've been successfully keeping fish for about 7 years, had soft water, hard water and brackish set ups and never heard cycling till I got on this forum, I know its a bit off topic but I'm curious lol.

 

[SuperColey1]

When you start a new tank it has clean gravel, clean everything, zero bacteria. Add things into the tank and instantly the microscopic dust on the gravel and equipment starts to rot and produce ammonia. Add fish and they add ammonia.

Ammonia is of course poisonous to aquatic inhabitants therefoer you don't want it in the tank at hobbykit measurable levels.

So we have the Nitrogen cycle. Bacteria that feed of ammonia turn it into nitrite. bacteria that feed off nitrite turn it into nitrate.

Therefore in a non planted or reef tank the filter has to build a bacteria colony and the cycle isn't complete until there are enough bacteria to get rid of ammonia and nitrite. Then you have the end of the 'cycle'.

In a planted tank plants consume ammonia. therefore a heavily planted tank may not cycle at all.

AC

 

[sorgan]

I've got to say this takes some getting used to, ammonia good! Ha who would of thought! I wish my marines where more understanding
Well I've come down this morning and all looks well, gotta go to work so will test water when I get home.

 

[SuperColey1]

I've got to say this takes some getting used to, ammonia good! Ha who would of thought! I wish my marines where more understanding

No its not that ammonia is good. Just that as it takes time for it to get into the filter, bacteria to turn it into nitrate, similarly the plants take time. I would suggest plant uptake is a little faster than the 10 minutes (on my 5.6x turnover) it takes for all the water to get into the filter.

After all in a heavily planted tank they are all over the tank. They remove any 'localise' spikes whereas the filter only 'receives' water from a localised point and by the time all the tank volume reaches this local point it will have passed plants on the way there. There is also the substrate to consider which will also have a decent amount of bacteria in it.

Basically your hooby kit should always read zero. In reality there is no such thing. Its just not enough to register on the hobby kit. A super dooper lab test would indeed show ammonia such as those used to measure the local drinking water. Its just too low to worry about.

The practice recommended by the Diana Walstad setup which has been succesful for many a year for huge numbers of users is not to do water changes and use the plants as the sole filter So no filter bacteria, just those in the tank in the substrate and on surfaces and on the plants.

I follow the 'no water change' route and the heavy planting but I also have the filter too. Call it a safety net. My fish breed so don't want mistakes. lol

AC

 

[sorgan]

I have two African dwarf frogs in my betta tank, would these guys be ok in this (the planted tank) tank?

Now by hardy fish are things like tetra's or those little stripy (danio's?) fish what I should be looking for?

 

[SuperColey1]

No idea on the frogs

tetras aren't hardy. Zebra Danios are

AC

 

[ian]

Frogs can actually go in an un-cycled tank. They'd be fine.

 

[sorgan]

Would they aid in the cycle? Producing waste and such.

 

[ian]

they would aid the cycling process, i was advised by our resedent ADF expert (jenste), that frogs weren't as suseptable to ammonia as fish and could be added.

 

[stevereade]

When you start a new tank it has clean gravel, clean everything, zero bacteria. Add things into the tank and instantly the microscopic dust on the gravel and equipment starts to rot and produce ammonia. Add fish and they add ammonia.

Ammonia is of course poisonous to aquatic inhabitants therefoer you don't want it in the tank at hobbykit measurable levels.

So we have the Nitrogen cycle. Bacteria that feed of ammonia turn it into nitrite. bacteria that feed off nitrite turn it into nitrate.

Therefore in a non planted or reef tank the filter has to build a bacteria colony and the cycle isn't complete until there are enough bacteria to get rid of ammonia and nitrite. Then you have the end of the 'cycle'.

In a planted tank plants consume ammonia. therefore a heavily planted tank may not cycle at all.

AC

Thank god lol always had tanks with quite a few plants so never tested it before.