3 Species Compatibility & Possibility

[Vivid-Dawn]

I've read the last few pages of posts, and couldn't find anything that has to do with my situation. Sorry if this seems long, but I want to give as much detail as possible so that there's enough information to base advice on.

I have decided I want to "re do" my tank. As I have relatively hard water (haven't tested it for specific numbers, but faucets get quite caked with mineral deposits if not cleaned all the time), I figured Cichlids would be good. I did used to have a couple Electric Yellows, but gave them to somebody who liked them too. Now I want to have them again, but I've also found others I like.
Tank: 60 gallons (currently has 1 gold gourami, 1 zebra danio, 1 glofish, 1 Boesemani Rainbow and 1 little orange pleco that has stayed little....everything died off (old age? never had any diseases), so that's why I want to start with something new)
Filtration: 75gph Marineland bio wheel (and has carbon 'sponge' type inserts too)
Maintenance: 25% water change once a week - vacuum half of gravel once a week, alternating sides (so each side gets done 2wice a month)
Decor: Big castle. There are no individual "caves", but it's more just one huge space of a tunnel with windows cut out in the outter part of the castle (see picture below)
Substrate: typical gravel found in pet stores...color is a mix of white, light blue and a bit of black (might have to add some more black, it's probably a little too bright)
Decor plans: I want to add some 'houses'. I was thinking I could use PVC pipe (black) and stack them perpendicular...kinda like a log cabin, but with spaces in-between each pipe to make a 3D grid. This way, they have places to go IN the pipe, and also AROUND the pipes. Keeping the castle, I was going to get 2 or 3 small grids to put around it, so everybody has their own territory. I guess I could get real rocks, but I think it might get too heavy for the glass to support.
Fish wanted: Cichlids. 9 pseudotropheus demasoni, 4 Electric Yellow, 3 Acei

Now, the main problem I have, is with the fish themselves. I've been doing research, and there's so many contradictions!

Pseudotropheus demasoni/(common name?) - All information I can find is to keep them in a group of a dozen or more. With my tank size, and wanting other fish, I'm hoping that if I only get 9 or 10, that would be okay.

Labidochromis caeruleus/Electric Yellow - Some sites say you should have at least half a dozen, other sites say kept in pairs. So I was thinking 4 would be okay

Pseudotropheus sp./Acei - groups of 3 to 10 and since I'll already have quite a few between the other two, I figured I would be okay with just 3

Besides simply the numbers, the other problem I have is with male/female ratio. Everything I've read says that all three species should have 2-3 females per 1 male (except damas, 1 male per group of dozen fish)...but THEN they say it's hard to tell the genders apart - so how am I supposed to know if I have the right ratio?

Also, with the decor/territory issue... I've read that you should have plenty of stuff for each fish to claim their own little space, but then I've read some things that decor should be sparse so that fish can't fight over territory. So should I just keep the castle, or get the pipe-grids too?

Fortunately, I have plenty of time to figure all this out...I can't afford this project until at least the end of the year (16 fish at $15 each is $240, plus the PVC pipe = $300 budget)
Also, I'm hoping my filtration and water changes will be able to support 16 6" fish, because I certainly can't afford a bigger tank (at least not for a couple more years)

So, in summary

#1 - can I keep 16 fish in a 60 gallon tank (considering my filtration/maintenance)?

#2 - are the numbers of fish going to be okay? 9 damas, 4 electric yellow, 3 acei (unsexed/random genders)

#3 - sparse hiding places, or many? (don't wanna spend $200+ on fish, only to have them kill each other off within a couple months)

P.S.
I have no interest in breeding. If they do, that's okay...but my main goal is to just have a show tank and colorful fishies to entertain me!
Also, that one plant is plastic... I tried real plants, they all die!

 

[HappyGeorge]

I may have missed something but if you do have a 60 Gallon tank with only 75Gph of Filtration the first thing you need to do is seriously upgrade that. Recommended from everybody is a figure of at least 8 times per hour. You should be looking at a figure of nearer 600 Gallon per hour. I do a 20% change once a week and have 12 times filtration and tank still got dirty with 30 fish (including 6 synos clearing stuff up) in a 100 Gallon.

Also the glass will not break from weight of rocks unless you start dropping them in it, I have a single rock weighing over 40kg in my tank, and in total about 150kg of rock. Do a search for rocks breaking fish tank on web and you should find a video of a guy building a pile of rocks about 4 foot high in the bottom of a 10 gallon tank with no ill effects.

 

[Vivid-Dawn]

Alright, after doing s'more research, I decided I'll probly get some P. Saulosi instead (3 males, 6 females). Could I still put the acei in? They're only mildly aggressive, so I'd put them in a couple months before the Saulosi, as I've heard that's what you do with more timid fish so they can stake out their territory first without being hassled.

 

[HappyGeorge]

Alright, after doing s'more research, I decided I'll probly get some P. Saulosi instead (3 males, 6 females). Could I still put the acei in? They're only mildly aggressive, so I'd put them in a couple months before the Saulosi, as I've heard that's what you do with more timid fish so they can stake out their territory first without being hassled.

Did you read my previous post? If so can you confirm what filtration you have, if you do indeed have 1 times filtration your probably going to kill whatever you put in, so compatibility isn't really an issue.

The territory they stake out will depend on the environment if you have enough caves that they don't have to fight for space then they probably won't. If you have only a few hiding places then aggressive fish will turf out timid ones even if they have made their territory. There is really no hard and fast rule as to what is compatible but lots of rocks, hiding places and caves will go a long way to dispersing any aggression. This is also the reason it is suggested that Malawi are kept in relatively crowded tanks, ergo the reason why your filtration is so important.

 

[Vivid-Dawn]

Did you read my previous post? If so can you confirm what filtration you have, if you do indeed have 1 times filtration your probably going to kill whatever you put in, so compatibility isn't really an issue.

I just looked up my filter, and I did get it wrong. It's "for tanks up to 75 gallons" and it's 350gph... which is still only half of what you suggest. But I've had 30 fish in there for nearly 2 years, and they only started to konk off in the last few months. So I was assuming it's from old age. As I said, I do 25% changes weekly and vacuum the gravel too. I guess if I need to buy another filter I'll have to add that to my budget and postpone the project longer.
I also planned to have room so each fish could have 2 caves... I got a DIY plan for cave towers. So if I had about 25-30 holes, that should be plenty, I hope.

 

[HappyGeorge]

Cichlids are really dirty fish as I understand it they require a lot more than most communal fish. Which is why the experts always suggest boosting the standard filtration that you get with aquarium packages. I know when I first got on here a year ago and started asking about Juwel packages and there suitability i was told that I would have to upgrade the filtration.

Diy caves are a good way to go, although don;t be scared of the whole pile of rock thing, here's a picture of my tank and you will see what they can take, as I said the piece you can see on the far left weighs approx 40kg on its own, and the right side is solid rocks piled up, they are all heavy limestone (kentish ragstone) and cobbles. Of course there is also the added bonus of the water displacement, so more rocks = less water to filter My only advice would be get some sort of cover for the glass, many people suggest eggcrate (the metal grill that covers light fittings) I used rubber matting of the jigsaw type you can buy in DIY stores to cover workshop floors or play areas.

New tank picture

 

[fishyfeet]

have you actually ever tested your water surely that would tell you something is wrong, di

 

[dthoffsett]

I would leave the P.acei out mostly because they really prefer longer tanks for the swimming space, males will reach 7" while females are slightly smaller.

With P.demasoni it's suggested to have groups of 12+ because they are so hard to sex, I highly doubt you'll be able to acheive a ratio of 1m/11f, when kept in larger groups multiple males aren't as much of a problem though you may still need to remove a couple if the fighting gets severe. You might be able to get away with a group of 9 or 10, it just depends on the m/f ratio and their individual personalities.

L.caeruelus really do much better in groups of 5 or more, when kept in smaller groups they tend to be a bit shy.

IMO P.demasoni & L.caeruleus are a classic pairing and can make for a stunning tank. If going with the two species I'd aim for 12 dems and 5-6 labs.

As for territories, there are 2 main schools of thought, you either need to make sure you have multiple caves/crevices for each fish or no decor at all. With no decor there are no territories to fight, that leads to a very bare tank and IMO more general bickering among the occupants. With multiple territories they have something to do besides pick on each other, it's also a good idea to move things around occasionally so it breaks up everyones territories and they have to spend time claiming them again.

You'll want to definitely increase your filtration, as HappyGeorge said, mbuna are very messy fish and because they are overcrowded to cut down on aggression there is a lot of waste to deal with. I'd also suggest testing your water and trying to figure out why you've had multiple fish die. IME while there are some shorter lived species, barring poor genetics or disease, most "standard" community fish live at least 5 years if well cared for.

You said you read prior posts, but did you take a look at the pinned topics? In my signature is a link that says "All About Mbuna" (also at the top of the page) with some very informative articles.