OohFeeshy
It's only forever; not long at all...
Hmmm... I may just buy some.... 
24 hour tank cycling! impossible? i think not!
- Thread starter trulytropical
- Start date
ddm18
Fish Crazy
Firstly, I'd like to apologise for the (slightly) aggressive tone of my first post, it was late, and I was tired - I have no further excuse... However, I stand by what I said.
Bignose, yes, the initial post didn't have much information at all. That's why the first thing that I did when I read it and thought it seemed interesting, was to do a Google search and learn what the product was. That's how I knew that the product wasn't a hard, shiny sphere. Of course, any webpage can say anything, and be relatively convincing, but that is where a person has to use his/her judgement.
If you wanted more information from trulytropical, you should have asked him/her for some details, rather than blundering straight in with what seems (to me) to be a slightly aggressive, or at least disbelieving and scornful,
On the subject of my problem with forums (by the way, I don't really appreciate your apparently sarcastic repetition of my comments), of course people's opinions are valuable, what I dislike is the fact that people often forget to mention that they are opinions. The offer in your first post to discuss the "real science" implies that you are an expert in the subject, which is disproven by the fact that you don't know what the product is, so you can't possibly know about the science of it.
You admit to being sceptical, but then claim to be open minded. These two character traits cannot possibly co-exist. If you're a sceptic it means that your mind is closed to new things, as we clearly see here.
My suggestion for improvement? People should make it clear whether their posts are opinion or knowledge, and, without wanting to go too over-the-top, should cite references where possible.
OohFeeshy - well done with the mature and sensible response.
Bignose, yes, the initial post didn't have much information at all. That's why the first thing that I did when I read it and thought it seemed interesting, was to do a Google search and learn what the product was. That's how I knew that the product wasn't a hard, shiny sphere. Of course, any webpage can say anything, and be relatively convincing, but that is where a person has to use his/her judgement.
If you wanted more information from trulytropical, you should have asked him/her for some details, rather than blundering straight in with what seems (to me) to be a slightly aggressive, or at least disbelieving and scornful,
A more friendly response might have been "There are many such products on the market, and I tend not to trust them, do you know how they work?"
On the subject of my problem with forums (by the way, I don't really appreciate your apparently sarcastic repetition of my comments), of course people's opinions are valuable, what I dislike is the fact that people often forget to mention that they are opinions. The offer in your first post to discuss the "real science" implies that you are an expert in the subject, which is disproven by the fact that you don't know what the product is, so you can't possibly know about the science of it.
You admit to being sceptical, but then claim to be open minded. These two character traits cannot possibly co-exist. If you're a sceptic it means that your mind is closed to new things, as we clearly see here.
My suggestion for improvement? People should make it clear whether their posts are opinion or knowledge, and, without wanting to go too over-the-top, should cite references where possible.
OohFeeshy - well done with the mature and sensible response.
Leslie
Fish Crazy
Most of us are of the thought that if it's too good to be true then it is. That being said, I was a skeptic about these 'cycling' products myself for a long time. Working at an LFS we see many of these products and have mixed reviews about them. Fairly recently we've become very fond of many of the products that Seachem produces and when Stability came out we were very curious about the claims. After doing much research on it and talking with our Seachem representative extensively I decided to try it on my Shellie setup. Another person from the shop decided to try it as well. Both of us were very impressed with the results. We definitely showed Ammonia/Nitrite but they never got to deadly levels and my tank took 17 days to fully cycle and his tank took 15 days with no deaths or signs of stress from either tank.
Skepticism (from webster.com):
1 : an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object
2 a : the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain b : the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism characteristic of skeptics
Look, ddm, true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain
Being skeptical and open-minded not only can co-exist, but are the very foundation of scientific and rational thought! You question, you probe, you seek further clarification, you do not take everything at its word, but once you have proof, you can accept the statement or fact.
Look, if I told you that I used 'science' to breed a parrot and a goldfish and I was keeping this bird-fish in my tank with the rest of my fish, you would want proof. But what if all I said was, "no I did it, why don't you believe me?" Would you? Of course not. Now bacteria-pearls are not quite the same jump, but the skepticism is the same idea. That is why even if I submitted a picture of a bird-fish, you would probably closely check the picture for editing via Photoshop. Skepticism! But now if I brought this bird-fish to your local university or museum or pet shop, and you saw it with your own eyes, then you would believe. To not belive in the face of overwhelming fact is close-minded, but you were skeptical until all the facts were in.
This is all I and the other posters are saying. We are skeptical until all the facts are in. In my mind, all the facts are not in even to this point -- Bio-Spira works somewhat better than its competitors, but certianly not perfectly. These pearls seem like a brand new product, and I personally am going to wait until many, many more experiences are posted about them. I am waiting for all the facts to come in, not jumping to conclusions. And that is my opinion.
I don't know how you can possibly include a method to judge whether posters' statements are fact or opinion. The distinction between the two are very blurred. And you know many people feel that their opinions are indeed fact. I asked (sarcastically or no) for some improvements to the forums because it is very easy to say the system is broken, but not as easy to suggest improvement. It is easy to sit on one's hands and compain, but what requires effort and is far, far more meaningful is to do something about it.
Finally, I did not feel that any of the responces, mine or any others', were unfriendly or otherwise. I certainly did not mean that. I was asking a question -- that is how you learn about new things. Not just by looking a company's webpage, which we all agree can be filled with worthless or misleading information. Perhaps my post could be construed as aggressive, but that was not my intent. It was my intent to bring up some questions, and to help a newer member about some of the details about cycling if they were interested. And, yes, I still mean, the real proven science of being patient with your cycling tank -- pearls or no pearls or Bio-spira or Stability or whatnot.
Again, all we were all preaching was skepticism and conservativeness, to check the water parameters often to ensure the health of the fish are maintained.
1 : an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object
2 a : the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain b : the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism characteristic of skeptics
Look, ddm, true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain
Being skeptical and open-minded not only can co-exist, but are the very foundation of scientific and rational thought! You question, you probe, you seek further clarification, you do not take everything at its word, but once you have proof, you can accept the statement or fact.
Look, if I told you that I used 'science' to breed a parrot and a goldfish and I was keeping this bird-fish in my tank with the rest of my fish, you would want proof. But what if all I said was, "no I did it, why don't you believe me?" Would you? Of course not. Now bacteria-pearls are not quite the same jump, but the skepticism is the same idea. That is why even if I submitted a picture of a bird-fish, you would probably closely check the picture for editing via Photoshop. Skepticism! But now if I brought this bird-fish to your local university or museum or pet shop, and you saw it with your own eyes, then you would believe. To not belive in the face of overwhelming fact is close-minded, but you were skeptical until all the facts were in.
This is all I and the other posters are saying. We are skeptical until all the facts are in. In my mind, all the facts are not in even to this point -- Bio-Spira works somewhat better than its competitors, but certianly not perfectly. These pearls seem like a brand new product, and I personally am going to wait until many, many more experiences are posted about them. I am waiting for all the facts to come in, not jumping to conclusions. And that is my opinion.
I don't know how you can possibly include a method to judge whether posters' statements are fact or opinion. The distinction between the two are very blurred. And you know many people feel that their opinions are indeed fact. I asked (sarcastically or no) for some improvements to the forums because it is very easy to say the system is broken, but not as easy to suggest improvement. It is easy to sit on one's hands and compain, but what requires effort and is far, far more meaningful is to do something about it.
Finally, I did not feel that any of the responces, mine or any others', were unfriendly or otherwise. I certainly did not mean that. I was asking a question -- that is how you learn about new things. Not just by looking a company's webpage, which we all agree can be filled with worthless or misleading information. Perhaps my post could be construed as aggressive, but that was not my intent. It was my intent to bring up some questions, and to help a newer member about some of the details about cycling if they were interested. And, yes, I still mean, the real proven science of being patient with your cycling tank -- pearls or no pearls or Bio-spira or Stability or whatnot.
Again, all we were all preaching was skepticism and conservativeness, to check the water parameters often to ensure the health of the fish are maintained.
OohFeeshy
It's only forever; not long at all...
Whee, I'm mature! But seriously, considering how rubbish most people consider Cycle to be, I'd much rather cycle with the pinch of fish food a day method for a while, then finish it off with a few platys then spend an awful lot of money on what for all I know could be a ball of dissolvable plastic with some fish waste inside (to feed the good bacteria that are starting to build on your filter.) Although next time I see them I will see about the price and prehaps get some- who knows, we could all be suprised.
jflowers
Ignore my post count, it means I waffle too much,
I went to my lfs today and while I was there, read the gumph on the bio spira, and it states that 'You can add fish 24 hours after adding' this product. Now a statement like that can't be made lightly in this day and age of vampire lawyers. Either it works or they are riding the crest of a wave untill someone shows they are wrong.
Jon
Jon
OohFeeshy
It's only forever; not long at all...
I don't know exactly what it says, but IMO, all that means is literally that- you can put fish in. You can put fish in after 3 seconds if you want, but the tank won't be cycled. Imagine this scenario-jflowers said:
Newbie buys a 15 gallon fish tank. Asks LPS guys what to do now. THey say, buy these. They build up good bacteria for your tank so the fish won't die. Newbie nods and smiles because he has no idea what they're talking about. Buys them. Takes everthing home, sets it up, adds the pearly things. Waits 24 hours. Goes and buys fish on LPS guidelines (ie. 2 common plecs, a silver shark and about a million tetras, ie. completely the wrong things) Puts fish in tank. Next day, a load of fish are dead. Takes water sample in to LPS, they say, buy this and this and your fish might have this so buy this.
Basicly what I'm saying is A) I'm bored so I'm writing a lot
and B ) unless you know an awful lot about fish you probably have no idea whether these things have cycled you tank. And if you are one of those lucky intelligent people, you probably won't buy these anyway because you rely on the trusty Danio Cycling Squad. And if the things don't cycle the tank, then the newbie will probably blame themselves for the deaths rather than blame the product which says they'll work and the LPS guys told them to buy.PS. I'm not saying all pet shops are like that. Its just really the big chain stores ie. Walmart and Pets at Home that tell you these things.
jflowers
Ignore my post count, it means I waffle too much,
Yes OohFeeshy I agree 100%, I personally would not use the products in question, I was just saying that, legally it must perform the criteria it states it does. Untill it is challenged in court, then its still questionable. It does state that you can add fish 24 hours after adding the product, that IMO is wrong, unless this product does as it says.
I have only cycled with fish, danios, I know, not good, but a definite way to do it. If I could fine pure ammonia I would use fishless every time. It is one of the ways you know it is cycled when readings level out.
I would not rely on a product that says it does something in 24 hours, that takes 21 - 42 days natuarally (bad spelling).
Jon
I have only cycled with fish, danios, I know, not good, but a definite way to do it. If I could fine pure ammonia I would use fishless every time. It is one of the ways you know it is cycled when readings level out.
I would not rely on a product that says it does something in 24 hours, that takes 21 - 42 days natuarally (bad spelling).
Jon
OohFeeshy
It's only forever; not long at all...
Elaborating on the point I made about not knowing whether its cycled, I thought the only real way of knowing whether it had cycled was waiting for an ammonia spike, then a nitrite one, then waiting for the nitrate to go up. Or something like that With these there is no way of knowing until your ammonia levels are sky high (or not, if these work) and all your fish are dead. And as these are meant to work in 24 hours, no one will be up 24 hours waiting for the spikes which may not happen! I don't know if they happen with these, I assume they don't but really, unless you get a microscope and look at your media (ooh looky, theres a goodbacteriaus forafishtankus) there is no other way I know of for telling.
If there is, well, for a start, I'm invisible, don't you know, and thirdly (that confused you didn't it) I am just a random figment of your imagination.
With these there is no way of knowing until your ammonia levels are sky high (or not, if these work) and all your fish are dead. And as these are meant to work in 24 hours, no one will be up 24 hours waiting for the spikes which may not happen! I don't know if they happen with these, I assume they don't but really, unless you get a microscope and look at your media (ooh looky, theres a goodbacteriaus forafishtankus) there is no other way I know of for telling.If there is, well, for a start, I'm invisible, don't you know, and thirdly (that confused you didn't it
) I am just a random figment of your imagination.gwlee7
Fish Crazy
OohFeeshy said:
That's just made me spew coffee all over the monitor.
***goes to get paper towels to clean up mess***
jflowers
Ignore my post count, it means I waffle too much,
gwlee7 said:OohFeeshy said:
That's just made me spew coffee all over the monitor.
***goes to get paper towels to clean up mess***
Tea in my case
Jon
In the case of bio spira and bactinets they are live active bacteria kept in a solution that slows down their metabolic rate so they last longer with a minimal ammount of food, biospira has the food in the solution and has a sell buy date on the bottle, bactinets has to be fed a ammonia based food by the lfs employees.
When you add these products to your tank they instantly colonise the filter media and once out of their storage solution become fully active feeding on any ammonia source in the tank, if their is no ammonia (ie no fish) then the bacteria starts to die off and you have wasted your money. The principal is exactly the same as when long time experienced hobbiests use mature filter media for a new tank.
These products do work and have proven results so should not be dumped in the same group as the likes of Cycle and Bacterlife which are not much better than adding distilled water to the tank.
When you add these products to your tank they instantly colonise the filter media and once out of their storage solution become fully active feeding on any ammonia source in the tank, if their is no ammonia (ie no fish) then the bacteria starts to die off and you have wasted your money. The principal is exactly the same as when long time experienced hobbiests use mature filter media for a new tank.
These products do work and have proven results so should not be dumped in the same group as the likes of Cycle and Bacterlife which are not much better than adding distilled water to the tank.
OohFeeshy
It's only forever; not long at all...
But I thought the idea was that there were no fish?? Surely if they eat up the ammonia in the pearls there will be none left, and no fish, so they die?CFC said:
And therefore have wasted your money? 
OK, so they probably won't use up all the ammonia, but since anyone who knows a bit about fish may think, well, 24 hours seems a bit short, I'll leave them in 48 just to make sure. And since there will be no fish in to produce ammonia, most will die.........
?If I'm wrong, then it's early in the morning and I have not yet recovered from the shock of how quiet it was without my sister here.
Thats exactly it, if you dont follow the instuctions and add fish within 24 hours then all the food that came with the biospira/bactinets will have been used and your money wasted since the bacteria have died. These products are designed for todays instant gratification society who want to buy a tank, fill it with water and go fish shopping the next day.
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