Stress Zyme & Stress Coat?

[StandbySetting]

14 days is pretty doable, providing you provide the ideal conditions for the bacteria to reproduce.

As for the chlorine killing filter bacteria/fish etc, the effects that chlorinated water have on a filter colony are negligible, the concentrations of chlorine in tap water are designed to kill the smallest of colonies, the size of the colony in your filter will be many orders of magnitude larger, so chlorinated water will affect it, but not to the extent that it is commonly talked about...you're taking a few percent if that.

The effects of chlorine on fish however is a different matter, the concentrations at which chlorine is said to kill aquatic organisms is between 0.16-0.21 Mg/L, this was tested on Fat Head Minnows, so variation across species will occur, the average chlorine concentration in my water supply is 0.37Mg/L, so if I do a 25% water change 0.0925Mg/L of chlorine will be added to my tank, so therefore there are concentrations that shouldn't kill fish, or have a considerable affect on my filter bacteria.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Abstract
On-site continuous-flow bioassays on fathead minnows using chlorinated and dechlorinated effluents from two treatment plants have shown residual chlorine to be the principal toxic agent in these effluents. The toxic effects at both locations were similar, in spite of the fact that one plant received metal-finishing wastes and the other did not; in both cases, the pH and dissolved oxygen concentration were favorable for fish life. The residual chlorine concentrations that produced a 100 percent kill was 0.16 and 0.21 mg/l; threshold concentrations were 0.04 and 0.05 mg/l. The addition of sodium thiosulfate to both effluents removed the residual chlorine and rendered them nontoxic.

From http/www.jstor.org/pss/25037299
(The red is mine to highlight the info.)

From Duke University:

What do I need to know about chlorine?
In the US, EPA guidelines require that tap water at any faucet contain a minimal chlorine concentration of .2 ppm, and stringently limits the concentration of bacteria (which may require more than .2 ppm chlorine to keep in check). Because chlorine breaks down over time, the chlorine concentration of the water that comes out of your tap will be lower than that put in at water plant. Thus, the exact concentration at your faucet depends on how far you are from the water plant, how long it takes the water to travel from the water plant to your house, how much chlorine is initially added, etc. Chlorine at high concentrations is toxic to fish; at lower concentrations, it stresses fish by damaging their gills. Concentrations of as little as .2-.3 ppm kill most fish fairly rapidly. To prevent stress, concentrations as low as 0.003 ppm may be required. Fortunately, chlorine can easily be removed from water by the chemical sodium thiosulfate, readily available at fish stores under various brands. Sodium thiosulfate neutralizes chlorine instantly. Note that there are many "water treatment" products that are advertised as "making tap water safe". Read labels carefully. Inevitably, the ones that neutralize chlorine all contain sodium thiosulfate, plus other substances that may or may not be useful. If your water only contains chlorine (as opposed to chloramine), sodium thiosulfate is all you need. The most cost-effective treatments use only 1 drop per gallon of water. Most other water treatments are much more expensive in the long-term; they may require a teaspoon of treatment (or more) per gallon!

Chlorine is relatively unstable in water, escaping to the atmosphere on its own. Water left in a bucket (or tank) with adequate water circulation (e.g. filter or airstone) will be free of chlorine in 24 hours or less.

Many netters report that they perform partial water changes without ever treating their tap water to remove chlorine. Keep in mind that even though fish show no APPARENT ill-effect from untreated water, that doesn't mean that the chlorine isn't stressing your fish. How much stress depends on how much chlorine is introduced to the tank, which depends on many factors (including the percentage of new water added). Because chlorine removers are so cheap (pennies per usage), the insurance they provide should not be passed up.

(The red is mine to highlight the info.)

From http/www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/water-treatment.html

 

[fishguy2727]

Bacteria reproduce VERY quickly. If you up the temp (I have read 95F and 100F being ideal for the ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria) you allow for the maximum reproductive rate of these bacteria. If you supply the ammonia to feed this reproduction you can definitely get it down to two weeks (some people have done it in less). The bacteria do not need to come from mature media or special products from a store, they are free in the air.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Everything I've read about this says that these particular bacteria take about 24 hours to double.

The rate of the cycle depends on the number of bacteria that are available in the air (generally speaking there are not that many). Raising the temp, adjusting the pH, increasing the oxygenation, etc. will only increase the numbers so fast. I'd love to see the documentation of these super fast cycles. How much was the dosage, etc.?

 

[BigbruiserAl]

Everything I've read about this says that these particular bacteria take about 24 hours to double.

The rate of the cycle depends on the number of bacteria that are available in the air (generally speaking there are not that many). Raising the temp, adjusting the pH, increasing the oxygenation, etc. will only increase the numbers so fast. I'd love to see the documentation of these super fast cycles. How much was the dosage, etc.?

+1 you can show what ever you like i have dont it twice now from scratch, the 2nd time was near perfect conditions and still not took 23 days. Dont get me wrong im not saying its not possible im saying that most of wont even get close to 14 days

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Eagle is correct- the bacteria that are found in our tanks are relatively slow to reproduce compared to other types/form of bactaeria. And the ones that consume nitrite reproduce even more slowly than the ones which eat ammonia. They are also way more sensitive to higher levels of ammonia and nitrite. This is normally the reason why most folks who try either DrTims One and Only or Tetra Safe Start have problems if they are dosing ammonia. If ammonia or nitrite get to 5ppm, it begins to kill the very bacteria we are trying to establish. This is not the case with the bacteria that do the same sort of job is waste treatment plants. Those strains are able to survive ammonia and nitrite at even higher levels and they will also reproduce much, much faster.

 

[fishguy2727]

That's fine. Every tank is different. I think temp is the biggest issue, and a steady supply of ammonia (as in you may want to split it up and do it 2-4 times a day, not just once, so they are not getting a huge dose and then nothing for 24 hours). You also only have to cycle it for the biomass of the first fish purchase, which is usually small. Adding less ammonia gets the tank ready for a smaller bioload, but does it much faster. No need to get it ready for a massive bioload just to add a few tetras.

Sorry, I don't have it documented and notarized.

I would love to see info about the growth rates of these bacteria, specifically under different temps. If anyone has this let me know.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

So far this is the best I can find:

Temperature
Nitrifiers prefer moderate temperatures, ranging from 20 to 30°C. As temperature declines into the teens, their metabolic activity will decline. At temperature levels above 35°C, however, they enter a region of potential life-threatening stress, perhaps due to enzyme disruption. `Nitratifiers' specifically have an upper threshold of about 40°C, at which point their activity completely stops, while the permissible upper threshold for `nitritifiers' appears to be approximately 5°C higher. In either case, attention should be given to stabilizing
reactor temperature, relative to avoiding extremes and short-term transients.

From Behavior and Physiology of Nitrifying Bacteria

The problem is that most of the research on nitrifying bacteria relates to waste treatment and not to aquariums. Since these two areas depend on different bacteria, I am not sure how well results for the waste treatment bacteria would translate to those in tanks.

 

[fishguy2727]

Are we sure they are different types of bacteria? It seems to me that processing ammonia and nitrite in freshwater would require the same bacteria, in aquariums, nature, or a waste management facility.

That matches what I had heard as being ideal, 95F and 100F.

So if you heater can get the tank up to 95F: 1-you should have gotten a weaker heater so that if it ever gets stuck on with fish present they have a chance of making it (so get two 1/2 powered heaters) and 2-raise it to that temp while fishless cycling to greatly decrease the time it will tank to carry out the fishless cycle.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The research by Dr. TIm Havonec would state that the preferred (and dominant) bacteria in an aquarium environment (where the nitrite concentrations are at trace levels with a properly working biofilter) selects for nitrospira, not nitrobacter. I'm sure someone has the specific articles that I am referring to, but I don't have the exact reference.


Secondly, in reference to the stocking level, I agree that you could be able to get sufficient bacteria for a tiny starting bioload by cycling for only 2 weeks. The general idea behind a full fishless cycle at 4-5ppm is to have sufficient headroom for a substantial first stocking, and not have to worry about future mini-cycles. Starting with a tiny bioload, it isn't really worth much to do a fishless cycle so rapidly. The bacteria colony will still be quite fragile, and could be easily disturbed, which you put the aquarist back into a classic fish-in cycle. There is nothing inherently wrong with a properly run fish-in cycle. But, an individual who does a 2 week rapid fishless cycle may not be prepared for a fish-in cycle. (Of course, there are countless hobbyists who are also completely unprepared for a fish-in cycle after following bad advice from some LFS. Of course, this does not include all LFS.)

 

[fishguy2727]

Please don't take me wrong, I am not recommending that people try for it, I stated it can happen in that short amount of time and other people feel it is not possible. Personally I feel that most of this information is valuable the the new hobbyist, in which case their first stock should be extremely light, so being prepared for a heavy stock (although good in case something does go wrong) may imply this is what they can do and they bring home too many fish the first time.

I don't think being ready for a large bioload will prepare the tank for future stocking. Within about three days the bacteria will adjust to the current stock, leaving the tank just as vulnerable to overstocking as a fish-in or weak fishless cycle.

From my research on the actual bacteria involved in ammonia and nitrite consumption in freshwater I found the following:
Ammonia consuming bacteria: Nitrosomonas marina.
Nitrite consuming bacteria: Nitrospira spp. .

I am still curious about the growth rates of these bacteria. I hear that they do not grow 'as quickly as other bacteria', but I think this conversation deserves some real numbers. Are we talking a doubling time of four hours instead of two, or 18 hours, or what? I will look too but I think the most valuable thing would be a study with these particular bacteria about their growth rates at different temperatures (specifics, not just faster slower, stopped, etc.). If anyone has this info please share.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Please don't take me wrong, I am not recommending that people try for it, I stated it can happen in that short amount of time and other people feel it is not possible. Personally I feel that most of this information is valuable the the new hobbyist, in which case their first stock should be extremely light, so being prepared for a heavy stock (although good in case something does go wrong) may imply this is what they can do and they bring home too many fish the first time.

I don't think being ready for a large bioload will prepare the tank for future stocking. Within about three days the bacteria will adjust to the current stock, leaving the tank just as vulnerable to overstocking as a fish-in or weak fishless cycle.

From my research on the actual bacteria involved in ammonia and nitrite consumption in freshwater I found the following:
Ammonia consuming bacteria: Nitrosomonas marina.
Nitrite consuming bacteria: Nitrospira spp. .

I am still curious about the growth rates of these bacteria. I hear that they do not grow 'as quickly as other bacteria', but I think this conversation deserves some real numbers. Are we talking a doubling time of four hours instead of two, or 18 hours, or what? I will look too but I think the most valuable thing would be a study with these particular bacteria about their growth rates at different temperatures (specifics, not just faster slower, stopped, etc.). If anyone has this info please share.

The numbers I've seen are about 24 hours to double, but I don't have the reference.



I don't disagree with you regarding the bacterial colonies ability to rebound from a major stocking whether it had the ability to before or not. But, I think the patience that a fishkeeper gains by cycling the tank up to 4-5ppm gains a level of patience, perspective, understanding and competance that isn't available without the time invested. The bacteria may be no better able to handle things, but the aquarist is! Also, I think that they lose a bit of the impulsiveness during that time, and gain a chance to truly research the fish they plan to keep and develop a proper stocking plan (including timing).

 

[fishguy2727]

Agreed.

Again, I only brought it up as a possibility. In some cases the fishless cycle occurs in as little as about 14 days. Increasing the temperature can make any fishless cycle go faster. I do agree that it should be a normal fishless cycle, not trace amounts of ammonia.

I looked and found some studies about temp, doubling time, etc. If anyone finds some good info please share.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Are we sure they are different types of bacteria? It seems to me that processing ammonia and nitrite in freshwater would require the same bacteria, in aquariums, nature, or a waste management facility.

Here is a direct quote from Dr Hovanec:

There are a few things that nitrifiers don't like - hydrogen sulfide, some heavy metals (zinc is a bad one but they can tolerate a fair amount of copper), freezing (not an issue here) and high nitrite. The last one sounds counter-intuitive but nitrite levels above 5 start to poison both the ammonia and nitrite bacteria and above 10 is bad indeed (note here - I am talking about aquarium nitrifying bacteria not sewage treatment nitrifiers).

I think I found the info you want re doubling times and temps:

Nitrifying bacteria are classified as obligate chemolithotrophs. This simply means that they must use inorganic salts as an energy source and generally cannot utilize organic materials. They must oxidize ammonia and nitrites for their energy needs and fix inorganic carbon dioxide (CO2) to fulfill their carbon requirements. They are largely non-motile (can’t move around easily) and must colonize a surface (gravel, sand, synthetic biomedia, and the 1001 other filter materials out there) for optimum growth. They secrete a sticky slime matrix which they use to attach themselves. Species of Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are gram negative, mostly rod-shaped, microbes ranging between 0.6-4.0 microns in length. They have evolved to become extremely efficient at converting ammonia and nitrite. One disadvantage is, they have a very slow reproductive rate. Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours.

(Red is mine.)

And regarding temperature:

Temperature The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).

Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).
Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.
No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C).
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C).

Nitrospira is less tolerant of low temperatures than Nitrosomonas. In cold water systems, care must be taken to monitor the accumulation of nitrites.

Both the above are from The Nitrogen Cycle

 

[fishguy2727]

Yes, I found those too. I found another source that did list 95-100F or so as ideal temp with maximum growth rate.