New Tank Vs Mature Tank

[backtotropical]

Everyone knows some fish are more suited to a 'mature' tank. My discussion topic is what is a 'mature' tank?

Is it merely a tank in which there are no ammonia or nitrite spikes because the filter has the appropriate bacteria colonies? If so, does that make a tank which has been fishless cycled 'mature' straight away?

If not, what does 'mature' actually mean, and what are the differences between a 'new' tank and a 'mature' tank?

It is said that 'mature' tanks are more stable. Again, does this just refer to ammonia and nitrite, or does it include pH, kH etc?

If the latter, why is water which has been sitting more 'stable' than 'new' water?

Please discuss.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

there has been a number of theories about this bandied around over the years, if you search on the forum you'll see the topic comes up a few times.

The best explanation I have ever heard is that there are thousands of different chemical reactions going on in our tanks when they first start up, we test for a few things like what you mentioned above. but we can't possibly test for everything. So in the same way that the bacteria colony takes time to mature and to stabilise, so do all the other chemical reactions that are taking place without us knowing.

So after a few month's when the tank is 'mature' or 'stable' it basically means that all the little chemical changes have settled down, as Bignose always say's 'nature always strives towards equilibrium'.

Also once the bacteria colony has cycled, it is still relatively fragile, once it's been in place for a few month's it's firmly taken hold as it were and you are then much less likely to have a disturbance and the resulting ammonia and nitrite spike.

 

[backtotropical]

Thanks Wiggle. Very interesting. However, what are these other chemical reactions? What part do they play in our water chemistry, or are they irrelevant for an aquarist's purposes?

Also, does a 'mature' tank become immature when a large water change is performed? If not, why is this different to adding fresh water to a new tank?

Sorry if thats loads of questions. I've just realised that I (as i'm sure many others do) took it for granted that a mature tank is a mature tank, but never really thought about why it's mature or what it actually means.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

don't apologise at all. i think it's best to question established knowledge and to learn the wisdom behind it. if no one had we'd all still be using old water and carbon and cycling tanks with platy's religiously.

I should say though, that i'm regurgitating what I've been told when i asked the same question, so don't know much of the science behind it (i don't have a very scientific mind) to explain more clearly. however I'll try and dig out and link to a post which explains more.

what I will say though re water changes is, as anyone familiar with cycling will know, healthy water is often less to do with the water itself but the factors around and in it, such as the filter media. Adding clean water doesn't un cycle you're media. I would assume the same is the case with other reactions.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

here you go http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=187865&hl=

 

[CFC]

Its all to do with biofilm. Over time as a tank matures biofilm forms on every surface in the tank and as time goes by the layers build up playing host to larger and larger numbers of bacteria and microscopic flora and fauna. It is this biofilm and the life it is home to that give a mature tank that slight safety barrier that newer tanks dont have, so when you accidently give just that little bit too much food or that catfish you havent seen for a couple of weeks is actually rotting inside a plastic ornament the biofilm in the mature tank cushions the impact so all you get is an algea explosion, where as the new tank would have gone into meltdown with ammonia and nitites spiking.

I'll leave it to the scientists to provide the papers and technical data, i know its there, i know what it does, and thats as far as my understanding goes.

 

[backtotropical]

Thanks. I had a read and i'm not sure about the 'slime' which provides an organic filtration.

I have a good grasp of cycling and the nitrogen cycle, but i wouldn't think that all the reactions going on in an aquarium are bacteria related. If they were, i suppose i could relate them to the nitrogen cycle and say that i vaguely understand.

Regarding the water changes, i agree with your statement, but as i said above, if not all changes are bacteria related, the elements of the reaction may be removed and replenished with a water change, hence me asking if this would 'immature' the tank by causing these reactions to take place over again.

Would this not be the case?

edit: just seen your post CFC. So, it almost is directly comparable to the process which goes on in our filters?

 

[CFC]

For some reason Miss Wiggles link doesnt work for me, it just takes me to the main index page.

Anyway yes the build up of biofilms is comparable to the maturation of our filters, only its a much slower process and with more types of bacteria, algae and microscopic animals involved all of which have their little role to play in the running of the tank.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

just tested the link and it's broken for me too. had it savbed in my notes bit on my controls (keep some intersting topics there) and the link worked when i pasted it into my browser, try that.

the other point raised in that thread is that things like bogwood, substrate, decorations etc in your tank will only react for a certain period of time, then they will become neutral. So, if you put new bogwood in (as is often the case with new tanks) it'll lower the pH slightly, over time this effect willl diminish and eventually cease altogether. With a number of new things in the tank them all leaching different chemicals and making slight changes to the water will inevitably create reactions which create changes in the water parameters. after they have all stopped leaching and affecting the water you can add new water and there will no longer be an effect on it.

 

[CFC]

No that doesnt work either.

 

[backtotropical]

Try this

http/www.fishforums.net/content/Scientif...Vs-Mature-Tank/

 

[Miss Wiggle]

that works for me. all my old links seem to have broken when the site got changed around, bit annoying tbh

 

[Bignose]

Here is a series of articles written by Skeptical Aquarist on biofilm

http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/devbio.shtml
http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/molds.shtml
http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/yeasts.shtml
http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/measure.shtml
http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/surscum.shtml

I really like the work Skeptical's done in collecting this information. I haven't seen the site updated in a long time, but at least the information is still up.

 

[Majjie]

They're great articles by Skeptical Aquarist - I went to save them in my "Favourites" only to find they're already there. It's a terrible thing ... creeping old age and forgetfulness!

I particularly liked:
"So, you won't be surprised to hear that I scarcely ever vacuum my gravel, just siphon off loose surface detritus"

That's a philosophy I embrace wholeheartedly.

I absolutely believe that the biofilm is the main explanation of the difference between a mature tank and a newer one ... but as an ex-microbiologist, I may be biased.

 

[CFC]

I too never disturb my substrates and only syphon off visable detrius and nor do i ever clean the rear panel of my tanks (or the sides unless they are visable) or scrub any decor from the tank. I believe that too many hobiests try to keep their tanks almost clinically clean and as such suffer from problems that a mature tank would never have.