Mystery Issue

[Mortaliton]

Good Evening all

I added the tank details in my sig to help as well. My Tank is partially Cycled. Some of the fish were in my 29 Gallon Tank and when I started this up I transferred most the gravel and the old filter media. I was adding fish increasing the bio capacity causing small ammonia spikes as well. Roughly .2ppm per day rise. The tank gets a water change every 2 days so the ammonia never exceeds .5ppm. I know any ammonia is bad so I am monitoring it. So my first issue was no quarantine tank and they went into the main tank. That is actually my next step after my 29 gallon recycles with its current fish. That tank is perfectly fine and so few fish that the parameters are good.

I can credit a few deaths to Tiger barbs just being real....jerks. I saw one straight up charge a smaller one and killed him on impact. A saint that one. But I feel like a have a parasite, bacterial infection but I cannot get the symptoms to go away. The tank has been on Melafix only for a week. General Cure for 4 days, I just did a combo Pimafix/Melafix for 3 days. I'm starting another bout of General cure.

I have lost 2 Pearl Gourami's so far. One just died overnight. The other started swimming on its side looking really rough. Fins looking really tattered. I had a Zebra Pleco as well. That's what the tag said but I have a feeling it wasn't, that or it was really young. Came out of his cave one day and stayed on the air stone, breathing hard with really tattered fins until I lost him a hour later. 1 Bristlenose Plec. He acted perfectly fine until one day he came up to the front of the tank on the glass. I actually commented to the wife he looked a tad bit bloated but I was keeping a eye on him. 30 minutes later he fell off the side of the tank and was gone. and a handful of barbs. They just died overnight. When I added the Pimafix/Melafix combo one went to the top of the tank and hovered around the surface but every other fish in the tank was good, he died overnight. and a few other barbs died overnight with no symptoms, I'm wondering normal Tiger Barb welcome to the neighborhood attitude got them.

Now Ironically, the few fish that had me originally concerned to begin with lack of the 2 tattered fish I mentioned are still going strong. Guramis' were really lethargic. Blue Gourami's hanging at the bottom on gravel. Pearl Gourami's hanging on top towards the surface. There no lethargic anymore besides one pearl gourami just chilling in the corner for 2 weeks now. The blues are swimming more and are not sitting on the gravel at all. There afloat when on the bottom and all the fish are eating again. They went a few days without eating until I started general cure.

Now I have 1 Blue Gourami flashing but significantly less. 2 Tiger Barbs are still flashing consistently with no improvement. Ammonia doesn't peak past .5ppm before I do a water change every other day. Nitrates and Nitrates are to close to 0 to tell if there's a amount on my test. Fully planted tank with plenty of hiding spots. 2 fake hollow logs and a cave, along with all live plants, stone, and a large piece of driftwood. I boiled it for 6 hours consistently rotating it. No side effects of discolored water.

Tank has a 100 Gallon filter that cranks 360 Gallons per hour and 2 Air stones with a Air pump for a 75 Gallon Capacity. Active carbon removed. Fine filter mesh, sponge mesh and 2 bio inserts. Bio balls and the ceramic tubes.

Some Fish Have Stringy white poop, and a few barbs are starting to flash besides the other 2.

Thoughts and opinions? Its been a couple of weeks and I would like to pinpoint it if its something. Although any ammonia is bad I never had fish flash before with such low amounts or show other signs.

Thanks for the help and Cheers!

 

[Byron]

A photo of the large tank will allow us to see the plant species and numbers; "cycling" issues might be avoided depending upon the plants. What is the pH?

There are however other very serious issues. First, never use two medications together without doing a massive water change (two or three preferable) so they cannot interact. I am going to say it is more than probable the Melafix and Primafix killed the fish, given your descriptions. What caused you to think these would do any benefit?

The flashing is most likely ich, because the fish are severely stressed and ich first attacks in the gills.

You also have serious stocking issues with the combination. Tiger Barbs are notorious for tearing into themselves in groups less than 12 (your observation is exactly what one would expect with five), and they will certainly enjoy going after the sedate gourami if any survive. The blue gourami is probably the most aggressive of the small/medium species, so that may be more trouble on the horizon.

And before it is said, if these fish got along in the 29g, that is because they were crowded in a very small space and that can cause fish to "reverse" attitude in a sense, but once they are in better surroundings they can revert overnight.

 

[Mortaliton]

Barbs were a school of 16 to start with. They rarely take a nip at the gouramis. No damaged fins from what I can tell. When I moved them to the big tank I went from 8 to 16. One die over night over the past 2 weeks without issue. Been 3 days without a death though.

Ph is 6.8

Also I do a 85% water change before switching meds.

Pimafix for the bacterial infection if it is, due to the swelled up pleco before he died. Melafix for healing benefit.

 

[Byron]

Pimafix for the bacterial infection if it is, due to the swelled up pleco before he died. Melafix for healing benefit.

OK. Don't use these. We do not know if there is a bacterial issue. As for the healing benefit...this is like snake oil. Diagnosing true health issues is extremely difficult, something I do not do with my own fish except for obvious things like ich and velvet. Several years ago I took advice to use one of these, can't remember which, and it said to dose every day for five days, so I did; on day 3 it was abundantly clear the fish were having issues, so I did an 80% water change and fortunately the fish recovered. The so-called medicines were dumped in the corner of the back garden.

Don't worry about the ammonia. The plants will readily assimilate all those fish can produce and more, plus your pH is 6.8 so ammonium not ammonia is pr-eminent. But the plants are still the saviour here.

Barbs in that large a group might be OK, keep an eye on things.

Gourami must have floating plants, something to look into. They will be more calm with floaters.

 

[Mortaliton]

Got some floaters. Need alot more. Gouramis are eating those fast. Honestly so far the barbs are more a danger to themselves this this darn mystery issue. I stopped using melafix and pimafix today because of the 2 deaths. And I was going to roll out 4 more days of general cure. Do a 85% water change and see what happens after that?

What are these floaters called? I like them and will order more online. Didn't have a name in the store.

 

[Byron]

Yes, dothe water change, another tomorrow is fine. Provided parameters of tank and tap water are reasonably close you cannot change too much water. Other members seeing this thread may have more ideas, but this is a good start.

Floating plants are fine, well done.

 

[Mortaliton]

Thanks for the assist. knocked out a 85% change today and this is day one of cure as of 4 Pm. General cure has had no ill effects thus far or previous treatments but I can stop it completely after 2 days or change water and stop it completely. Re add the active carbon. This is the one treatment that seemed to perk the fish up previously.

But I got a LFS on the list to hit up and see if they have floaters.

Thanks again!

 

[Essjay]

What are these floaters called?

Water lettuce, Pistia stratiotes.

Melafix and Pimafix are not really medications, despite API's claims.
Melafix is said to treat bacterial infections, but it contains just cajeput oil.
Pimafix is said to treat fungal infections, but it contains just bay oil (the website says from West Indian bay tree)
As you can see, these are just herbal remedies. And they affect the labyrinth organ of fish such as bettas and gouramis.

 

[Byron]

I missed the question on the floating plant ID, sorry...but Essjay came to the rescue!

 

[Mortaliton]

Thank you, I'll probably have to order more online. The LFS store guy I got them from brought them in from home since his personal tank was growing the for so much. So he gave them to me for $1. I doubt online will be kinder but I'll look those up and go for a variety.

Day 4 without deaths. Minor flashing.

Also I will research that more with melafix and Pimafix being bad for Gouramis and Bettas. When I was younger I used those medication on both a Betta and Gouramis with no I'll effect. They both lived in a 120 gallon together for 3 years. Those we the only meds I actually ever used until now. I never had parasites before somehow.

 

[Byron]

Thank you, I'll probably have to order more online. The LFS store guy I got them from brought them in from home since his personal tank was growing the for so much. So he gave them to me for $1. I doubt online will be kinder but I'll look those up and go for a variety.

Day 4 without deaths. Minor flashing.

Also I will research that more with melafix and Pimafix being bad for Gouramis and Bettas. When I was younger I used those medication on both a Betta and Gouramis with no I'll effect. They both lived in a 120 gallon together for 3 years. Those we the only meds I actually ever used until now. I never had parasites before somehow.

Like all floating plants, once it has adjusted to the different environment (water, light) it will reproduce and in time you will be tossing out plants every water change. I bought one Water Sprite in the mid 1990's and had it in 7 or 8 tanks right up to this year. Water Lettuce I bought two I think, and it did the same, I also used it in my outdoor pond during summers for years.

Primafix and Melafix are herbal something or other, and these things can cause difficult for fish respiration. You won't usually see this, but it weakens and stresses the fish, and that makes them vulnerable to other things they otherwise would shrug off. Any additive to the water fish live in is dangerous, even conditioners and plant fertilizers, so absolutely necessary additives must be only what is essential.

 

[Mortaliton]

I currently use these capsuls with fertilizer in them. I place one below every plant. Directions said more but I started light untill I see how the plants react.

When I was younger and before I moved out of my parents house. I had a 120 gallon. Hard to bring that as a young teen so I had to get rid of it and re home the fish. I had 4 full grown Oscars, 1 large common pleco, 1 large angel fish, and 1 Betta in the tank. They did grow up from babies together as well. But I never needed fertilizer at all. Plants grew rapidly. If I remember correctly Oscars are dirty fish. I'm hopeful as these guys get bigger and produce more waste I can cut all the fertilizer out or at least mostly.

What is your recommendation for a melafix and pimafix replacement? I also have FixIck on hand when I get a hospital tank set up. That is not snail friendly.

Also from what I understand, Ich is not treated by General cure. That is probably the only thing I have not tried treating. If the fish keep flashing which it has been a couple weeks. Should I pop my snails in my other aquarium and try FixIch? I can do another large water change as well before hand. Watching my fish, one barb who wasn't flashing before is now flashing. I still see no visual signs of Ich, white dots and all.

 

[Byron]

First on ich...if you do not see spots, it may be ich in the gills which is the first sign of it, or obviously it could be other issues. Ammonia, nitrite and high nitrate can cause flashing. And obviously other external skin issues. I am not a trained biologist/microbiologist, so I leave things alone. Over the years I have been regular in water changes, never had the wrong stocking (species or numbers) in a tank, always had plants including a thick cover of floating, and fed quality dried foods...and I only twice, maybe three times in the last 15 years have I had a problem for which I had to consult a microbiologist. Both times the fish deaths (regular) came in with new fish and had absolutely no visible signs until the fish just died overnight. Both turned out to be internal protozoan, and on the advice of the microbiologist I added metronidazole to their food and it worked. If I had guessed at "x" disease and started dumping cure-all snake oils into my tank I might well have lost the lot. This is why prevention is so important, rather than cure guessing. Provide what the fish need and expect, it lessens stress, and the fish are healthier.

In every case of ich or velvet (I've had both) simply raising the heat to 30C/86F for two weeks did the job. A couple of times I noticed flashing with new fish in the smaller planted QT, and I did nothing. It went away in less than a week, and a few weeks later the fish went into the main tank and lived for years. Stress is the direct cause of 90% of all fish disease/health issues. Avoid stress and you probably won't have to buy "medicines" at all. I would let a fish die before dumping some unknown "treatment" in the tank, risking all the fish when it probably isn't going to help anyway. Provided there are no signs of something contagious spreading, this is a much safer approach when you do not know what it is.

 

[Mortaliton]

I'll raise the temp to 86. I had it at 82, raised from 78 previously as well. I appreciate the help. I find it aggravating and frustrating when I cannot pin point a problem.

From what I understand, Cory's are salt intolerant. Salt is probably off the table for me with a high temperature? Not sure about the snails.

 

[Byron]

I'll raise the temp to 86. I had it at 82, raised from 78 previously as well. I appreciate the help. I find it aggravating and frustrating when I cannot pin point a problem.

From what I understand, Cory's are salt intolerant. Salt is probably off the table for me with a high temperature? Not sure about the snails.

Cories actually are not much more problematic with salt than most freshwater fish, but I would never use salt without very good reason. This should not be needed for ich.