.

[Byron]

Because it simply does not show data for NaCl levels at 0.048g/L as the OP is using. It shows a much different set of data based on a tap water using a different product (pure NaCl).

The distinction of numbers is vital because, for example, c02 levels in your home at 1,000ppm are much different from levels at 10,0000ppm. You may be able to live comfortably at one level with no zero deleterious effects but at a level 10 times higher could be fatal.

I'm sorry, but this is irrelevant. I just read back through this thread, and every member (aside from yourself and the OP) has questioned why salt is being added to a tank of freshwater fish. All of the members who posted have noted this is wrong and harmful to the fish. There is no way around that.

If this is some sort of lab experiment, as would seem to be the case, that is very different. But no hobbyist should be adding salt (sodium chloride) to a tank of freshwater fish. That is the only point I intended to make, and others have agreed.

 

[ChefAlex]

I'm sorry, but this is irrelevant. I just read back through this thread, and every member (aside from yourself and the OP) has questioned why salt is being added to a tank of freshwater fish. All of the members who posted have noted this is wrong and harmful to the fish. There is no way around that.

If this is some sort of lab experiment, as would seem to be the case, that is very different. But no hobbyist should be adding salt (sodium chloride) to a tank of freshwater fish. That is the only point I intended to make, and others have agreed.

Simply because similar hobbyists have come to a different opinion, based on personal opinion, doesn’t mean it is correct. As a degreed chemist, albeit not practicing, I find your logic extremely flawed. NaCl is not absent from nature in freshwater, it exists in varying levels. Just as c02 in your home, arsenic in your tap water or nitrate in your aquarium, nearly everything has a safe measurable level for a given species.

 

[Byron]

Simply because similar hobbyists have come to a different opinion, based on personal opinion, doesn’t mean it is correct. As a degreed chemist, albeit not practicing, I find your logic extremely flawed. NaCl is not absent from nature in freshwater, it exists in varying levels. Just as c02 in your home, arsenic in your tap water or nitrate in your aquarium, nearly everything has a safe measurable level for a given species.

It is not personal opinion, it is scientific fact. Every professional ichthyologist in the hobby will say what I wrote in the article. Dr. Neale Monks approved it and published it. You are free to disagree, but that does not change fact either. Clearly the soft water fish species do not require salt at any level we would add to the water. What levels of salt (sodium chloride) there may be in my water I've no idea, but given the GH/KH is zero and it comes from a mountain reservoir and has a pH below 5, I would suspect there is little if any sodium chloride in it. But even if there is some trace amount naturally, that does not alter the fact that we do not need to add more and should not, if we value the fish. I add none, except what may be in fish foods. And my wild caught fish have lasted past normal average lifespans and spawned so I must observe and conclude they do not need any added salt. There is no reason anyone should add sodium chloride to a freshwater aquarium, other than to treat a specific temporary problem if that is the safest and most effective treatment.

 

[KSA]

Bryon, I can only tell you, that the approach I have followed with using Instant Ocean sea salt, is used in hundreds of labs across the world. I would like like to think those researchers do it for a reason and have determined it is not the least harmful to the fish. However, I understand your point of view to som degrees and it has definitely made me wonder why we actually use Instant Ocean sea salt.

 

[ChefAlex]

It is not personal opinion, it is scientific fact. Every professional ichthyologist in the hobby will say what I wrote in the article. Neale Monks approved it and published it. You are free to disagree, but that does not change fact either. Clearly the soft water fish species do not require salt at any level we would add to the water. What levels of salt (sodium chloride) there may be in my water I've no idea, but given the GH/KH is zero and it comes from a mountain reservoir and has a pH below 5, I would suspect there is little if any sodium chloride in it. And I add none, except what may be in fish foods. Any my wild caught fish have lasted past normal average lifespans and spawned so I must observe and conclude they do not need this salt. There is no reason anyone should add sodium chloride to a freshwater aquarium.

I have never said it is essential to add salt to any freshwater aquarium, you are not comprehending correctly.

The point is the OP is using instant ocean in distilled water. Please understand there is a wild difference between distilled water and tap water. You have not shown, and can not show, that the levels of NaCl being used by the OP is detrimental to fish health. You simply keep referring to your article that is irrelevant to the points being made.

As the OP and I have cited before, using instant ocean in laboratory settings is standard. It is a widely available commercial product that has an analysis that is measurable and used in many different industries including the food industry.

 

[Byron]

Bryon, I can only tell you, that the approach I have followed with using Instant Ocean sea salt, is used in hundreds of labs across the world. I would like like to think those researchers do it for a reason and have determined it is not the least harmful to the fish. However, I understand your point of view to som degrees and it has definitely made me wonder why we actually use Instant Ocean sea salt.

I obviously cannot speak for what goes on in labs. They should certainly not be taken as the goal for the proper maintenance of fish, or any other animal. Considerable harm is being done to the fish, none of us doubts that. As Colin pointed out, the fish in the earlier video are in dire straights. I suspect there is some underlying reason for adding sodium chloride for experimental purposes, perhaps to eliminate some other issue that might interfere with the study, or whatever. I don't think any of us initially realized the "lab" connection here, although Colin did pick up on it. The bottom line is, and remains, that this product is not suitable for freshwater fish and there are other options such as rift lake salts (no sodium chloride) or using calcareous substrates/media. And in this I am solely refering to home aquaria, not animal experiments in labs. Just so other members are clear.

 

[ChefAlex]

I obviously cannot speak for what goes on in labs. They should certainly not be taken as the goal for the proper maintenance of fish, or any other animal. Considerable harm is being done to the fish, none of us doubts that. As Colin pointed out, the fish in the earlier video are in dire straights. I suspect there is some underlying reason for adding sodium chloride for experimental purposes, perhaps to eliminate some other issue that might interfere with the study, or whatever. I don't think any of us initially realized the "lab" connection here, although Colin did pick up on it. The bottom line is, and remains, that this product is not suitable for freshwater fish and there are other options such as rift lake salts (no sodium chloride) or using calcareous substrates/media. And in this I am solely refering to home aquaria, not animal experiments in labs. Just so other members are clear.

I did pick up on the lab connection within seconds, as I first pointed out, of reading the OP’s original post. For someone with my background it was crystal clear.

There is no additional need for sodium chloride, that is not being debated. The point is, the distilled water needs to altered before use. The method to achieve this is using instant ocean. As I pointed out, instant ocean is the standard used because it is widely available and has a composition that can be measured and such data can be supplied by the manufacturer. As pointed out, it does contain NaCl but that is irrelevant. The levels of NaCl are not detrimental to fish health.

 

[Byron]

I did pick up on the lab connection within seconds, as I first pointed out, of reading the OP’s original post. For someone with my background it was crystal clear.

There is no additional need for sodium chloride, that is not being debated. The point is, the distilled water needs to altered before use. The method to achieve this is using instant ocean. As I pointed out, instant ocean is the standard used because it is widely available and has a composition that can be measured and such data can be supplied by the manufacturer. As pointed out, it does contain NaCl but that is irrelevant. The levels of NaCl are not detrimental to fish health.

Fine, but this is not applicable to home aquaria where we want the fish to be in better health. There are safe products for freshwater aquaria, Instant Ocean is not one of them.

 

[ChefAlex]

Fine, but this is not applicable to home aquaria where we want the fish to be in better health. There are safe products for freshwater aquaria, Instant Ocean is not one of them.

Not to argue for the sake of debate, but instant ocean is safe for home freshwater aquaria. If it is safe in a lab setting, the same dynamics play out in home aquaria, simply measure the amount of salt and results will be exactly the same.

I’m not saying the remineralizing products available to hobbyist aren’t good, they probably are a very good option. I’m saying there is no reliable evidence that you can’t remineralize distilled water with instant ocean because there is NaCl present in higher than normal amounts that a particular species might be exposed to in the wild. I could make the case that your tap water isn’t safe for a given species because magnesium levels, strontium, potassium or anything else might be in ranges outside of that species particular habitat.

There are many, many, variables to the water our fish life in. Just as in life, everything in moderation.

 

[Byron]

Not to argue for the sake of debate, but instant ocean is safe for home freshwater aquaria. If it is safe in a lab setting, the same dynamics play out in home aquaria, simply measure the amount of salt and results will be exactly the same.

I’m not saying the remineralizing products available to hobbyist aren’t good, they probably are a very good option. I’m saying there is no reliable evidence that you can’t remineralize distilled water with instant ocean because there is NaCl present in higher than normal amounts that a particular species might be exposed to in the wild. I could make the case that your tap water isn’t safe for a given species because magnesium levels, strontium, potassium or anything else might be in ranges outside of that species particular habitat.

There are many, many, variables to the water our fish life in. Just as in life, everything in moderation.

There is no problem debating/discussing/arguing important aspects of home aquaria. Many inexperienced members new to the hobby come here looking for advice. The internet and forums like TFF can be the difference between life and death for fishes keep in aquaria. But where you and I do disagree is that you allow what I will not, because I understand the impacts on fish of everything that is outside the species' preference, and I recognize that even one small factor can be significant to the fish and to the member's stay in the hobby.

Manufacturers frequently say "x" product is "safe," or using up to five times "y" conditioner will not harm fish. Such statements are not true, and their definitions of "safe" are too narrow. The fact that fish do not turn belly-up when we use "x" or overdose "y," or the fact that outwardly the fish appears the same does not mean it has not been seriously compromised, and that can lead to further problems that otherwise would not occur.

All of this adds stress to the fish. Stress is the direct cause of 95% of all aquarium fish disease. That alone should tell us that every additional thing we do that is making the fish's normal internal functions have to work just a tad harder is without question going to impact the fish.

Fish have an absolutely unique relationship to their aquatic environment, much more crucial that that of any terrestrial animal to life in air. Once we understand that biology, it is easier to see why those few grains of salt do matter to the fish. It is impacting the fish's physiology and that weakens the fish. Along the way, other factors may do the same, until it is too late and the fish "mysteriously dies." It is not mysterious at all, if one realizes the steps.

As for re-mineralizing water, that too is not true for all species. Soft water species generally do not require any minerals in the water. I already mentioned that my water is zero GH/KH and I have had fish for over 30 years. Ian Fuller says he uses RO water with no buffering for his wild cories, and they are thriving. As you move toward moderately hard water species, there is a need for mineral salts. But those are salts of minerals like calcium and magnesium, not sodium chloride which is detrimental. If the aquarist needs to re-mineralize the water for the species being kept, there are safe methods that only provide what it needed. And that will always be safer for the fish. And if using Instant Ocean to achieve the mineralization necessary for these species, the level of sodium chloride would be very high as it is part of the mixture.

 

[ChefAlex]

There is no problem debating/discussing/arguing important aspects of home aquaria. Many inexperienced members new to the hobby come here looking for advice. The internet and forums like TFF can be the difference between life and death for fishes keep in aquaria. But where you and I do disagree is that you allow what I will not, because I understand the impacts on fish of everything that is outside the species' preference, and I recognize that even one small factor can be significant to the fish and to the member's stay in the hobby.

Manufacturers frequently say "x" product is "safe," or using up to five times "y" conditioner will not harm fish. Such statements are not true, and their definitions of "safe" are too narrow. The fact that fish do not turn belly-up when we use "x" or overdose "y," or the fact that outwardly the fish appears the same does not mean it has not been seriously compromised, and that can lead to further problems that otherwise would not occur.

All of this adds stress to the fish. Stress is the direct cause of 95% of all aquarium fish disease. That alone should tell us that every additional thing we do that is making the fish's normal internal functions have to work just a tad harder is without question going to impact the fish.

Fish have an absolutely unique relationship to their aquatic environment, much more crucial that that of any terrestrial animal to life in air. Once we understand that biology, it is easier to see why those few grains of salt do matter to the fish. It is impacting the fish's physiology and that weakens the fish. Along the way, other factors may do the same, until it is too late and the fish "mysteriously dies." It is not mysterious at all, if one realizes the steps.

As for re-mineralizing water, that too is not true for all species. Soft water species generally do not require any minerals in the water. I already mentioned that my water is zero GH/KH and I have had fish for over 30 years. Ian Fuller says he uses RO water with no buffering for his wild cories, and they are thriving. As you move toward moderately hard water species, there is a need for mineral salts. But those are salts of minerals like calcium and magnesium, not sodium chloride which is detrimental. If the aquarist needs to re-mineralize the water for the species being kept, there are safe methods that only provide what it needed. And that will always be safer for the fish. And if using Instant Ocean to achieve the mineralization necessary for these species, the level of sodium chloride would be very high as it is part of the mixture.

I will agree to disagree on instant ocean until NaCl levels in the order of 0.048mg/L are proven detrimental to fish health, because there are simply no such studies at that low of a level. Many freshwater waterways may have similar levels already. As I have said many times previously, almost anything such as arsenic, c02 or NaCl can be in a certain environment, the level at which is the determining factor, not simply its presence. Not to mention, NaCl is present in nearly every body of water even if in trace amounts, and yes, even in the habitat zebra danios may naturally come from.

As far as the RO/DI aspect goes, Ive already explained in post #19 why that would be possible. Re-reading that would give you some clearer insight. I think you are not understanding that your hobbyist level test kits are not giving you a clear picture, it doesn’t matter if they read “0” on a gh/kh scale, they are not sensitive enough to test for trace amounts of ions in the water. As I mentioned previously, if those soft water habitats were truly devoid of all dissolved ions life would not happen. Trace amounts is the key here.