Very long mouth rot

[confused_aquarist]

I know this might sound rather strange, but 4 of my fish have had mouth rot for 6 months.

It's confined to the lip, the mouth first turns white or bloody, peels off by itself in a few weeks, turns white/bloody again, and then repeats.
The 4 fish in question always have mouth rot and it never spreads to any of the other 20 or so fish of the same species in the same tank (possibly because I have UV sterilizer for this tank).

What I do know is that this seemingly harmless problem can turn lethal- ending in an entire jaw melting away when fish is stressed and seemingly unresponsive to antibiotics.

Has anyone experienced a similar issue? I am SO curious what it is.

 

[MaloK]

It's not primarily a bacterial infection, or the bacteria involved have developed resistance to the antibiotics used.

If you been dosing the tank too lightly. The antibiotics could not be reaching the site of infection effectively.

It could also be something that is not typical or a fungal infection not affected by antibiotics.

You could try to deliver the antibiotics by food to insure stronger doses are taken.

 

[GaryE]

"Fish".

It tells us very little if we're going to diagnose. What fish?

It matters.

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Photos would help if you could perhaps post some please?

 

[confused_aquarist]

"Fish".

It tells us very little if we're going to diagnose. What fish?

It matters.

Clown killifish; it’s the same ones that have been experiencing flashing issues.

So after getting Fellmanni aphyosemion today and seeing them arrive with the same kind of mouth rot (half of the jaw melting away), looking exactly like my last dead killie with a bump-looking thing on its lip and eventually losing its jaw, I’m kind of suspecting it’s an issue common to the fish family.

It’s strange. It couldn’t have been a farm issue since it’s wild caught. Both the male and female have some growth on mouth. It’s weird how they always arrive with mouth issues, and if columnaris or TB, I don’t understand why it only affects the mouth and not fins, scales, etc.
its shipping from several hundreds miles away so probably isn’t the water either.

Btw; they spawned about 8 eggs the moment I put them in a small case and stopped right when I added brine shrimp. They obviously didn’t seem to like it, and now just hide all the time.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Photos would help if you could perhaps post some please?

Here are some pictures.

1- farmed annulatus with white patch on lower lip (non-healing 6 months)

2- wild Normani lamp eye with white patch on lower lip (non-healing 3 weeks since arrival)

3- farmed annulatus with jaw deformation on lower lip, jaw partly missing, progressed from picture 1, death 3 months after developing initial symptom (observed also in 2 other annulatus from same batch during arrival, both died within a week)

4- wild Fellmanni aphy with jaw deformation on lower lip, jaw partly missing, arrived today

They don’t seem to spread easily to other fish, don’t spread to fins and body, fish that don’t get it never get it and once a fish has it it’s chronic never fully heals.

Sigh, poor killies causing weekend worries

 

[Fishfunn]

Clown killifish; it’s the same ones that have been experiencing flashing issues.

So after getting Fellmanni aphyosemion today and seeing them arrive with the same kind of mouth rot (half of the jaw melting away), looking exactly like my last dead killie with a bump-looking thing on its lip and eventually losing its jaw, I’m kind of suspecting it’s an issue common to the fish family.

It’s strange. It couldn’t have been a farm issue since it’s wild caught. Both the male and female have some growth on mouth. It’s weird how they always arrive with mouth issues, and if columnaris or TB, I don’t understand why it only affects the mouth and not fins, scales, etc.
its shipping from several hundreds miles away so probably isn’t the water either.

Btw; they spawned about 8 eggs the moment I put them in a small case and stopped right when I added brine shrimp. They obviously didn’t seem to like it, and now just hide all the time.

Definitely sounds like mouth fungus (Columnaris). Columnaris can be caused by a poor diet, bad water conditions, overcrowding, and other conditions that cause stress for the fish. Columnaris thrives at high nitrite levels, so keeping these down to zero is important.

What antibiotics did you use? In the US, I used Seachem Kanaplex and would recommend that. As another poster said, I would try mixing it in food as well. To mix in food, use equal portions of Seachem Focus with Seachem Kanaplex, and fish should have no trouble eating the food.

 

[GaryE]

There's something really wrong somewhere. None of those species are prone to what I see in the photos, and problems like that are things you might see once every ten years with one of those species. The fact the fellmani arrived today in that state reflects poorly on the seller - I would not sell a fish with that deformity.

I'm surprised at wild caught fellmani being sold. Did you get the collection code? That's not a commercially collected fish, although it could be in a Congo shipment. It isn't likely.

There is a mystery to this. If they all came from the same source, I'd suspect flavibacter/columnaris. But you have shown skills with antibiotic use in other threads, about your annulatus. You use a microscope.

If it were a nutritional deficiency, it wouldn't show on new arrivals.

I've kept and bred multiple generations of Aphyosemion, Epiplatys, Fundulopanchax, various lampeyes, and over 35 years with them haven't seen what you're reporting (although the normani looks fine, like it has a minor injury from bumping its face). It's very weird.

 

[confused_aquarist]

There's something really wrong somewhere. None of those species are prone to what I see in the photos, and problems like that are things you might see once every ten years with one of those species. The fact the fellmani arrived today in that state reflects poorly on the seller - I would not sell a fish with that deformity.

Well what is this problem that you're suspecting that happens every 10 years?? I also find this mysterious and I even feel like it's a country or region-specific thing where fish handlers are carrying disease on their hand infecting their fish without knowing.

@Fishfunn What I used was Kanaplex, at 7x the recommended dose which is the vet recommended dose. It seemed to prolong life, because when I used it the fish survived for 3~4 weeks longer than when I didn't use it on a similarly sick fish. I also combined it with a nitrofuran with no luck. But feeding medicated food is no use because by the time they show a deformation on their jaw they no longer eat.

The Fellmanni was from a personal seller in killifish association, on an internet auction. It was not a store.
I also didn't mention that they all come from different source, annulatus from internet store, lampeye from chain store, Fellmanni from auction.
I want to save at least the clown killies because they've been with me for a while and sick for a very long time

 

[GaryE]

The mouth damage problem you are talking about is what I'm talking about. In 35 years of breeding 30 or 40 species of killies, I've seen mouth problems maybe 3 or 4 times at the very most, with newly arrived fish. You have them on 4 of 4 species. That seems very odd to me. Inexplicable.

 

[confused_aquarist]

The mouth damage problem you are talking about is what I'm talking about. In 35 years of breeding 30 or 40 species of killies, I've seen mouth problems maybe 3 or 4 times at the very most, with newly arrived fish. You have them on 4 of 4 species. That seems very odd to me. Inexplicable.

I'm more curious as to what the pathogen might be. It's obviously the most common issue that I've had with sick killies. If you know what the cause might be that is. For sure it's strange, when their jaw gets deformed they always turn into a V shape. At first I thought it was that they couldn't close their mouth because it turned into a V, but upon a closer examination, it turns out the bottom part of the V jaw is missing! So it's not a bump or lipwart, it only looks like a bump when looked from the side because it's a V shape.

 

[Fishfunn]

I'm more curious as to what the pathogen might be. It's obviously the most common issue that I've had with sick killies. If you know what the cause might be that is. For sure it's strange, when their jaw gets deformed they always turn into a V shape. At first I thought it was that they couldn't close their mouth because it turned into a V, but upon a closer examination, it turns out the bottom part of the V jaw is missing! So it's not a bump or lipwart, it only looks like a bump when looked from the side because it's a V shape.

Honestly, I don't think once a fish has Columnaris, it is curable. In the past, I haven't been able to save any fish that had the infection for a substantial length of time. The best you can do is prevent the spread to other fish using good tank maintenance and antibiotics like you have done.

I stopped buying fish from a LFS that gets their fish from southeast Asia. Almost 90% of the fish I bought there had a short lifespan.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Honestly, I don't think once a fish has Columnaris, it is curable. In the past,

If you've bred them, would you say that the children of those farm-raised fish also have short lifespan? I'm wondering whether these debilitating diseases are transferable via the ovary.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I know this will add even more to the mystery (or, may solve it) but the male Fellmanni fell ill today for no reason, while the female recovered a lot, eating and swimming. The male just floats and breathes heavy. No sign of flashing or external symptom. Only a small white dot on very tip of mouth.

 

[Naughts]

The water looks green there.

How often are you doing water changes and what percentage is changed?

Is there sufficient aeration to create plenty of surface water movement?

As the fish are from varying sources the issues are likely to be in your water, maybe contaminated supply or insufficient clean water or oxygen which can make fish ill, or make them more susceptible to pathogens.