Questions

[TylerFerretLord]

Well, I was thinking and I came up with a few questions. I always manage to ask really strange ones.

1.) Can you overstock a tank if you over-filter and the fish have enough room to thrive? I think the extra filters would help with the excess waste.

2.) Is it possible to have a self sustaining tank? For example, snails, plants, some form of algae eater and fish? Plants absorb nitrate, snails consume waste, algae eater keeps excess algae down, fish eat plants and algae.

3.) Can Irridescent sharks be kept in a pond? I don't want to part with mine now. XD

4.) Can you promote algae in a tank? I have none, and my plecs are probably getting sick of the discs. XD

5.) What is a good snail that doesn't eat plants?

6.) How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wod?

 

[Aphotic Phoenix]

1) No matter how much filtration you have it is possible to exhaust the amount of oxygen in the water. I think you'd have a hard time doing this however if all the fish still had proper swim room.

2) Yes, but they are very lightly stocked, and achieving that balance isn't easy.

3) Yes, if the pond is heated. (Yes some people do have tropical fish ponds...I can't imagine their energy bill ><)

4) Yes, do a little research on all the common causes of algae and basically do that. Of course, don't let the water get too nasty for your fish of course!

5) Some sources state that the Pomacea bridgesii species of Apple snails do not feed on healthy plants, while others say they can be discouraged from munching on your plants by giving them leafy greens such as lettuce or spinach.

6) a woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood...or you can go with this answer... http/www.getodd.com/stuf/stupid/woodchuck.html

 

[KraKen]

Well, I was thinking and I came up with a few questions. I always manage to ask really strange ones.

1.) Can you overstock a tank if you over-filter and the fish have enough room to thrive? I think the extra filters would help with the excess waste.

2.) Is it possible to have a self sustaining tank? For example, snails, plants, some form of algae eater and fish? Plants absorb nitrate, snails consume waste, algae eater keeps excess algae down, fish eat plants and algae.

I've been wondering those exact same things, I know they make a seeled glass orb with algea krill and a bunch of other organisms in it that only needs light to survive.

 

[modaz]

6) a woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood...or you can go with this answer... http/www.getodd.com/stuf/stupid/woodchuck.html
[/quote]

 

[TylerFerretLord]

1) No matter how much filtration you have it is possible to exhaust the amount of oxygen in the water. I think you'd have a hard time doing this however if all the fish still had proper swim room.

What If I use several of those Bio-Wheel filters, or create something like a waterfall? Even somehing to increase surface area could improve the oxygen levels.

EDIT:

Also, if a single over-the-side filter with a GPH suitable for a tank it is filtering can properly oxygenate said tank, why couldn't increasing the GPH by using more filters work?

 

[chibi]

1.) My brother has have an overfiltered 10-gallon with 2 big angelfish, 3 flame tetras, a synodontis, an upside-down catfish, a chinese algae eater, a glass catfish, a kuhli loach, a male swordtail, a female swordtail, and a bulldog pleco. He hasn't had a death in over a year. I think it's possible, judging by what I've observed.

2.) Yes, it's quite possible. I can remember a member having one, and read an article somewhere where this guy hadn't fed or changed his tank in over 2 years. It's possible, but VERY hard. You have to have a steady amount of bacteria and such. Wouldn't try it.

3.) If you can keep it well oxygenated and at a steady temperature, I'm sure.

4.) Leave the light on too long. Expose it to sun. Those are great ways.

5.) I've never had a mystery snail eat a plant, although they might.

6.) I don't know. D:

 

[TylerFerretLord]

1.) My brother has have an overfiltered 10-gallon with 2 big angelfish, 3 flame tetras, a synodontis, an upside-down catfish, a chinese algae eater, a glass catfish, a kuhli loach, a male swordtail, a female swordtail, and a bulldog pleco. He hasn't had a death in over a year. I think it's possible, judging by what I've observed.

That tank seems crowded space-wise, but you proved I can do it. Thanks!

2.) Yes, it's quite possible. I can remember a member having one, and read an article somewhere where this guy hadn't fed or changed his tank in over 2 years. It's possible, but VERY hard. You have to have a steady amount of bacteria and such. Wouldn't try it.

I only plan on doing it when I have more experiance. Mabye I could market it if I perfect it! XD I think a no-care-needed tank would be a good seller to offices.

3.) If you can keep it well oxygenated and at a steady temperature, I'm sure.

Well, I suppose I should get a job and save money for the pond. It should only take, say, 20 years. XD

4.) Leave the light on too long. Expose it to sun. Those are great ways.

When I left for a week the light was on 24/7. Still no algae.

5.) I've never had a mystery snail eat a plant, although they might.

How big do mystery snails get?

 

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Well bioload isn't the only factor in why overstocking is bad...

The more crowded the fish are the more stressed they are, which increases aggression, chance of illness/death. Not to mention you will eventually hit a cap on how filtered a tank can become before the current in the tank is just too strong. Even if you used a denitrator you'd have to worry about how quickly the nitrate levels would rise with all the waste decaying in the tank.
And I'm fairly certain that you will eventually reach a cap on how much oxygen can enter the water even with maximum surface area.

As for number 2...A friend of mine has a "self-substaining" tank...it sits in front of the window so the plants absorb the waste products + tons of algae grows, algae eater/snails eat algae, algae eater/snail waste feeds plants/algae... It is the most god awful looking tank I've ever seen, and I have serious doubts about how stable this will be long term.

 

[TylerFerretLord]

Well bioload isn't the only factor in why overstocking is bad...

The more crowded the fish are the more stressed they are, which increases aggression, chance of illness/death. Not to mention you will eventually hit a cap on how filtered a tank can become before the current in the tank is just too strong. Even if you used a denitrator you'd have to worry about how quickly the nitrate levels would rise with all the waste decaying in the tank.
And I'm fairly certain that you will eventually reach a cap on how much oxygen can enter the water even with maximum surface area.

Well, my idea wasn't to cram fish in to the point where they have no room, but to be able to put high-waste fish in a smaller tank or many small fish. And tank shape matters too. I could use a cube tank, much more room than your average tank.

EDIT:

And I would not slack on water changes, and I'm sure I could make something to slow the current. A peice of plastic right under the output of a filter could slow it, and give it more time to absorb oxygen, no?

 

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Well what exactly are you trying to do? That might help us give you a better idea on if it's a bad idea or not.

"Long" or "Breeder" tanks generally allow for a few more fish because there is more territory room, plus the larger foot print gives more room for gas exchange at the surface. Plus some fish are just so active they need a proper amount of swim room.

The "many small fish" thing runs into the crowding problem. You can OS some schooling species a bit because they like the company of their own kind, but they still need room to move...and since most fish prefer certain levels of the tank you have to take that into consideration.

 

[chibi]

Mystery snails are larger than those little pest snails. They are about 2 inches long. They poop a lot, though...

http/badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile92.html

 

[TylerFerretLord]

Well what exactly are you trying to do? That might help us give you a better idea on if it's a bad idea or not.

"Long" or "Breeder" tanks generally allow for a few more fish because there is more territory room, plus the larger foot print gives more room for gas exchange at the surface. Plus some fish are just so active they need a proper amount of swim room.

The "many small fish" thing runs into the crowding problem. You can OS some schooling species a bit because they like the company of their own kind, but they still need room to move...and since most fish prefer certain levels of the tank you have to take that into consideration.

I had no plan, I was simply curious.

I want to add more fish to my 100 gallon (Once I finally get it. ), but I think I could add a few large schools of small fish such as neons, with a few bottom dwellers such as plecs or corys.

About how many neons could I put in a very overfiltered 100 gallon? with the 1 inch per gallon rule that's 80 neons(average size is 1.25 inches, according to wikipedia). Of course, I don't want just neons, but in an over-filtered tank i suppose I could get away with 85-100. But then there's swimming room, so it would be less.

My plan for stocking is:

Neons
Corys
Mollies or other small livebearers. Endlers?
A plec
Mabye a snail or two
A shrimp or two
My LFS has a crawfish in a community tank, and the fish are swimming around it constantly. I might get one.
A gourami, possibly.

ANy stocking ideas, based on the whole over-filtering concept?

 

[Aphotic Phoenix]

Ah okay...well I'll say right now...I always go over my "inches per gallon" because I generally stock small fish, and pick fish that like different levels of the tank, over-filter, and water change twice per week.

I think right now in my 28G the planned final stocking list is something like:
6x Brillant Rasboras, 3x Zebra Danios, 3x Cories, 1x Dwarf Gourami, 1x Keyhole, and there is one lonely guppy that was the lone survivor of my mothers "fishy" cycle...(have all of these currently except I need to purchase the final 2 of the 6 rasboras, and 2 of the 3 cories...just waiting for the store to get more in)

Lighting, cover, current, etc will all play a role on where exactly in the tank fish like to hang out too in a way. So my suggestion is: choose the species that you want the most, and slowly build paying attention to where your individual groups of fish like to live in your tank. Remember that they will get larger so don't go too crazy if the tank seems a little "empty". Keep a close eye on your water params as well...currently my nitrate levels don't even rise because the plants suck up the extra nitrates...but depending on how many fish you put in your tank that may be something you want to pay attention to.

Edit:
Shrimp represent a very tiny bio-load...so you can actually get quite a few of them. Be very cautious about the crawfish however, it may end up trying to snack on some of the smaller fish like neons.