Name and shame LFS

platypus

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I don't know if this has been suggested before, but I think it would be really useful if there was a forum that let people name and shame their LFS if they have a bad experience. I have had my tank for 8 months but when I bought it I was given some shocking advice from the shop - like it's OK to add fish a week after you set it up, and it doesn't matter how many you put in, or what type. We were allowed to buy rummy nose tetras most of which died really quickly because they are so sensitive to water conditions - it really is cruel. Furthermore they positively encouraged us to get sucking loaches - 4 of them - when we had algae, without telling us how big they would grow or that they would get aggressive when they became adults. Also there are dead fish in almost every single tank. These people are clearly only in it for the money - all the more reason not to give it to them!

Does anyone else think this is a good idea or does this already exist?
 
Hi Platypus,

It would be nice to do this but there is a very big downside! People and forums end up getting sued by the stores that they name. It's more of an issue in the US than over here at the moment but it won't be long before we catch up.

In the US a series of cases have been in progress since 5th May 2001 where a group of hobbyists mentioned poor service by a particular company which that company felt was libellous. There have been various outcomes to the different cases but at least one forum has been closed for good and several of the hobbyists ended up settling out of court as they couldn't afford to continue paying for defence.

I think William (the admin of this board) would be a bit worried if we were to do this to him :p

Cheers, Eddie
 
I think it's a good idea to share bad experiences, but with the previso that that might be more down to the individual staff on duty that day than the LFS itself.

Also, what might be helpful to one person may be annoying to another - for instance, I wanted to buy a single cardinal tetra to make up my school but it was the policy of that particular LFS not to sell shoaling fish singly! (and space was tight in that particular tank). I had a friend who wanted to buy a Chinese Algae Eater ("sucking loach") because she'd had one for years that she loved, and it died, so she wanted a replacement, but the two LFS's she went to said "You don't want one of them - vicious varmints, they are. We never stock them!".

I think it would be a really good idea to have some kind of database of reviews of LFS. Then we could say what was good about a particular shop (price, speed of service or whatever) and what was not so good (animal care. help and advice or whatever). It might be that I just want to buy some innards for my Fluval 3 pump. I don't need any advice. I don't want to be told what to do with it and I want to get in there, buy the stuff and get out, for a budget price. Or it might be that I want to find out if a rare species is compatible with my tank and need to have a look at a specimen, talk to an expert, prepare my tank and wait for another one to come in for me to collect it.

The only thing I would say is that we'd have to be very careful from the legal aspects, as a certain major pet chain has already sued website hosts for libel.
 
Eddie and Anna,

Thanks both of you for the good advice. Anna I agree completely, I now only use the original shop when getting sponges, frozen food etc, and make a much longer journey when I want advice or new tankmates. Sadly this means a longer journey for any new fish on the way home, but so far they seem to have done OK.

I think the review database is a great idea - I would love to know what the best places in London are to go for advice - I don't mind travelling if I know it is going to be worth it! There is nothing more upsetting than realising you've been scammed by some mercenary - most people involved in tropical fish seem to do it out of love which is what makes it even more frustrating. I have to say in this particular case that it does seem to be a general problem with all of the staff - they are perfectly polite but they just don't care about the welfare of their animals. You should see the state of their tanks, it makes me so angry! :angry:
 
Unfortunately life isn't fair - you can name a great place for getting fishies and help, but not the opposite. This question has come up before and as was already said, it's not good policy to name and shame in public - but between friends talking (ie pm's or emails) I don't think there's a problem as long as nothing is said or written in public.
 
Fair enough - looks like I will have to resort to plan b - walking the streets with a bell and a sandwich board ;)
 
What about freedom of speech? Should it be always good things to say, nothing bad?

If you say how things really are and not telling any lies, then they don't have any reason to sue you. And if they sue, they don't win, because you was talking only how things are. (I don't know how judicial system works in usa, where you can sue everyone about everything :lol: )

Although it would probably be better if you tell about your experiences on your own homesite.
 
mrV said:
What about freedom of speech? Should it be always good things to say, nothing bad?

If you say how things really are and not telling any lies, then they don't have any reason to sue you. And if they sue, they don't win, because you was talking only how things are. (I don't know how judicial system works in usa, where you can sue everyone about everything :lol: )

Although it would probably be better if you tell about your experiences on your own homesite.
From the limited bit of journalism I've done it seems that Freedom of Speech is a defence in some countries (USA, for one) but in UK it's more complicated than that. OTOH, you're less likely to get sued in UK.

However, in most democracies that rule seems to be that if it's factually true you can say what the heck you like. The problem comes when you have to prove what you said was factually true (a potential nightmarish hassle) and when stating opinion as if it's fact.

For instance, if I say "I went to Fishes-R-Us [a company name I just made up] and hated the service there!" that would be OK because it's obviously just my opinion.

If I say "I went to Fishes-R-Us and they were abusing the fish", I have effectively accused them, in public, of something likely to damage their business. They'd have a perfect right to sue, and I'd have to provide evidence the my accusation was true (i.e. that I hadn't libelled them). However, in reality, unless you're a prominent person, it is unlikely most companies would actually bother. The exception is companies with aggressive legal departments and massive bank accounts, and prominent people on the Internet who are unaware of their prominence - then be afraid, be very afraid!

The journalistic get-out clause is when you say stuff like: "One woman I interviewed, who declined to give her name, claimed to have witnessed an incident in which staff from Fishes-R-Us were treating fish in an abusive manner..."

That way
(a) It's not me saying it, it's "one woman I interviewed"
(B) I only said she "claimed", I didn't state it as fact
© I stated the facts of the claim (that she witnessed an incident) not an opinion. I could justifiably claim that ofcourse I didn't think it was true!

Just to cover myself further, I'd then try to get a statement from Fishes-R-Us's Press Spokesman:
"...but a spokesman from the company said that investigations into the incident had not been able to find a shred of evidence to substantiate it."

The more serious your accusation, and the more at fault the company, generally the more likely you are to get away with it. Plus in UK you have to prove "material damage" ie. the claimant has to prove that they have actually lost physical money as a result of the incident. I'd suggest Trading Standards and the RSPCA would be better people to go to as a first resort, if you live in UK. They have the legal powers and can actually do something.

[Any lawyers reading feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken at any point - you might be sparing me some trouble]

So, say what you like but make sure it's what's actually happened, that you state opinion as opinion and if necessary you give the company the chance to give a contrary opinion. Alternatively, Publish and be Damned!
 

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