Messy New Tank

[breeak]

I realize that there are lots of redundant questions about cycling out there, but hopefully this isn't one of them.

I adopted 8 harlequin rasbora and 2 african dwarf frogs from a friend, they are in a 12 US gallon eclipse tank. I thought that seemed like a lot of fish for that size tank, but they were fine prior to the move. We had to remove almost all of the water for the move, but we kept the gravel and filter. We kept a very small amount of water with the gravel to keep it moist during transport and same for filter.

After refilling the tank and adding the fish/frogs, it seemed like the existing bacteria colony had not survived the trip, the ammonia levels were instantly up to ~4.0, so I did a pretty big water change, and settled in for a cycle. That was 3.5 months ago, and still absolutely no cycle. At first I was very worried about the fish - a couple of them had inflammed gills - and did pretty regular 20% changes (every 3-4 days), to keep the ammonia levels down to between 1ppm and 2ppm. 4 of the rasboras just got worse and died, which was very frustrating. After a month of this with absolutely no nitrites produced, I decided I needed to let the levels get higher or the tank would never cycle. I also decided the gravel wasn't helping, and was too thick, so I reduced it to just a decorative coat on the bottom, pretty thin. I also stopped disturbing it during water changes.

I picked up biospira, and added that for 3 days in a row, dripping it on the main filter and the bio filter, as well as directly into the water. I reduced the water changes to ~15% once/week, but I can't bring myself to let the ammonia go above 4. It's been right around 4 for a few weeks though. Still absolutely no nitrates! The remaining fish and frogs are all eating and look healthy.

So please help me and tell me why the damn tank won't cycle! There is one other strange thing going on - the water in my building has high ph over 8.0, so when I do water changes I add kent neutral controller - the ph of the new water is then 7.0, but the ph in the tank itself still tests really low, at 6.0. I don't understand why that would be, although it's probably the only reason the remaining stock has lived through so many weeks of high ammonia. Maybe it's the kh being so low?

Here are the tank stats:
pH 6.0 or less
Temp between 76 and 80, usually 78F

With nutrafin KH/GH test:
GH 80ppm
KH <10ppm

Following tests with aquarium pharm. master test kit:
Ammonia: usually 4.0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm - never have gotten reading above 0
Nitrate: 0ppm - never have gotten reading above 0

Products used for water change: kent neutral controller, kent first step, sometimes api stress coat & kent freshwater essential

Feeding: fish get tetramin flakes 5x/week, approx 2 flakes/fish, 2x/week supplemented with daphnia, brine shrimp, blood worms
frogs get brine shrimp/mysis shrimp/daphnia/blood worms 3-4x/week, approx /.75 frozen cube at a time.

The tank has silk plants and one piece of driftwood.

I apologize for the long post, I just wanted to include all of the information. I am by no means a tank expert and expect I'm doing something stupid, I just can't figure out what.

Thanks!
Bree

 

[black angel]

The only thing i can think of is the filter isnt big enough for the fish, so matter how much ammonia is being put out the filter cant cope with it.
Thats unless you are washing the filter sponge out in tap water? How often do you wash out the filter and do you change it?

 

[breeak]

The only thing i can think of is the filter isnt big enough for the fish, so matter how much ammonia is being put out the filter cant cope with it.
Thats unless you are washing the filter sponge out in tap water? How often do you wash out the filter and do you change it?

Wouldn't I see at least some nitrites in that case though? I haven't changed the filter in 3 months, at most I'll give it a swish in tank water I've taken out, but I've stopped even doing that in case it was harming the bacteria.

After doing a bit more reading this morning, I'm wondering if the ph is too low for the bacteria.

 

[mark.w.jones]

1. Are you sure the filter is efficient enough for the tank. It should turnover around 5x your tank volume an hour for optimal performance. So around 60 US gallons per hour or 230 litres per hour.
2. I havnt read anything about bacterial growth being affected by pH but maybe someone else knows better.
3. Have you added any fish meds to your tank at all. Some are very good at killing off your filter bacteria.
4. You were initally quite overstocked which probably didnt help things and the bacteria in your filter couldnt cope with all the waste leading to your first water quality problems.
5. Most members here would highly recommend against fiddling with your pH or adding any extra chemical things at all. Keep any additions to an absolute minimum.
6. How is the filter sponge and filter media in your filter looking? Maybe theyre past their best and need partially replacing. Obviously dont replace all of either one at once. About a third. Then leave for a month and repeat until it's all replaced.
7. Cycling with fish is notoriously time consuming and stressful for all involved. I know you didnt choose to do it that way thou.

Good luck

 

[breeak]

1. Are you sure the filter is efficient enough for the tank. It should turnover around 5x your tank volume an hour for optimal performance. So around 60 US gallons per hour or 230 litres per hour.
2. I havnt read anything about bacterial growth being affected by pH but maybe someone else knows better.
3. Have you added any fish meds to your tank at all. Some are very good at killing off your filter bacteria.
4. You were initally quite overstocked which probably didnt help things and the bacteria in your filter couldnt cope with all the waste leading to your first water quality problems.
5. Most members here would highly recommend against fiddling with your pH or adding any extra chemical things at all. Keep any additions to an absolute minimum.
6. How is the filter sponge and filter media in your filter looking? Maybe theyre past their best and need partially replacing. Obviously dont replace all of either one at once. About a third. Then leave for a month and repeat until it's all replaced.
7. Cycling with fish is notoriously time consuming and stressful for all involved. I know you didnt choose to do it that way thou.

Good luck

Thanks for your help.
1. The eclipse system 12 is certified for 150 GPH.

3. No, other than stress coat which isn't a "med" I don't think

4. Yeah, I know. I thought it was too high and was suprised they hadn't had problems.

5. Ok - but I think > 8.0 ph is too high for most non-cichlids, isn't it?

6. The filter sponge is definitely dirty since I haven't wanted to disturb it. Eclipse filters are all in one, so I can't see the charcoal. I was swishing it in old tank water to clear the sponge a bit. Since partial replacement isn't an option, what is your thought on replacing it?

7. Yes, I am definitely worried about the little guys.

3. No, other than stress coat which isn't a "med" I don't think

...

5. Ok - but I think > 8.0 ph is too high for most non-cichlids, isn't it?

To clarify - "first step" is a chlorine/chloramine remover, I think it also can remove ammonia, but I don't think the amount I'm adding to the change water is high enough to remove all the ammonia and starve the bacteria. "Freshwater essential" is just a salt mix, the only substance listed that isn't a simple ionic salt is sodium EDTA.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am not familiar with Kent First step. However, I have used Amquel for years. Amquel neutralizes chlorine and chloramine and heavy metals and detoxes ammonia also. Howeve, the use of it will render most ammonia test kits useless- they will give false readings.

Most ammonia test kits are based on Salycilates reagents and these are the ones effected. The bottle label tells you this and suggest using one that is based on Nessler reagents. Amquel is made by Kordon who sell such ammonia kits.

I would bet this is what you are axperiencing, but am not 100% certain I suggest you read all the info on the bottle of Kent.

ps- Kent does not provide much info on their site- just poked around there- I suggest you contact them about this if your label doesn't say anything.

 

[breeak]

I am not familiar with Kent First step. However, I have used Amquel for years. Amquel neutralizes chlorine and chloramine and heavy metals and detoxes ammonia also. Howeve, the use of it will render most ammonia test kits useless- they will give false readings.

Most ammonia test kits are based on Salycilates reagents and these are the ones effected. The bottle label tells you this and suggest using one that is based on Nessler reagents. Amquel is made by Kordon who sell such ammonia kits.

I would bet this is what you are axperiencing, but am not 100% certain I suggest you read all the info on the bottle of Kent.

ps- Kent does not provide much info on their site- just poked around there- I suggest you contact them about this if your label doesn't say anything.

I wondered about that (false ammonia readings) - I wasn't able to find out if the aquarium pharm reagent is based on nessler or salycilates, but I figured that it was a moot point, because I haven't seen anything about nitrite/nitrate tests being similarly affected and figured if the cycle was happening but my ammonia tests were inaccurate that I would at least see nitrites and nitrates being produced, and could extrapolate from that that at least SOMETHING was happening. I'll check out the Kordon ammonia test though, sounds useful regardless. Do you know what I mean about the nitrite/nitrate levels being zero leading me to believe no ammonia is being processed?

Thanks so much for your time guys.