Is This Legal/allowed?

[Gremily]

Hi, I visited an LFS near me about 2 weeks ago and saw they had a very large fish, I think it is a Pacu that was about 40cm/16" long and looked like this: http/www.aquahobby.com/gallery/img/pacu1.jpg
It was in a very small tank for its size, I'd guess it was 90x38x45cm/36x15x18", but I presumed someone had ordered it and would be picked up soon.

So I went back there today and saw that the fish was still in the tank (I'm guessing it was the same fish as it looked just like the one from before)
The fish barely had enough room to turn around and was just sitting still.

Is this allowed? Surely shops can't keep a fish like that, especially for two weeks. I am thinking about phoning the SSPCA (Scottish Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) to report it, do you think this is the right thing to do, or are shops just allowed to do this?

I'd also like to know if its ok to feed live fish to other fish as the big fish ate two goldfish that were thrown in while I was there.

 

[freckle101]

well its not pratical for the lfs owner to be keeping a suitibly sized tank just for it is it?

i know its cruel agree 100% but fish are only usually there for days and in a bigger tank they are harder to capture for when they are sold

 

[The-Wolf]

did you ask the lfs why they have such a large fish in that tank?
as an ex-LFS employee I can see that if a customer has dumped the fish onto the store
and that is the only tank available for it, it is a tempory measure.
better to keep the fish alive than to cull it for no good reason.
things like this happen and whilst I worked in a shop I did my best to sell the fish to
the correct customer or, as was most often the case, get a wholesaler to buy it from us.

as for the feeding live fish to the pacu
yes it illegal in the UK to feed a live vertibrate to another vertibrate, however
if the pacu has only been raised on live fish and will not accept anything else
then the lfs must feed it live fish for it to survive.
I didn't like doing it myself but had to on several occasions with a ray that refused all other foods.
I did finally manage to get it onto frozen lancefish before it was sold, but it took several weeks.
I did not do it in front of customers though and for them to do it in front of you was not on.

my advise is ask to speak to the manager and politely ask why they are keeping such a big fish in that sized tank.
also tell him/her that although you understand in some cases feeding live fish to other fish maybe nessicary
that is is not appropriate for staff to do it in front of customers, given that it is actually illegal to do so.
be civil and polite at all times and if you are not happy with the answers, then contact the SSPCA and tell them everything.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I don't think there are any laws against this type of thing, if there were, then goldfish bowls would be illegal- but they are not, so i don't think there is much to protect pacu's from ending up in 36inch long tanks just as there isn't really any protection from the law to prevent goldfish ending up in bowls.
Its wrong i know, but a lot of people don't seem to place much importance on the well being of fish.
Lfs often overstock their tanks because they often have very powerful filtration and their fish often don't stay long enough in the tanks to show the ill efects of being in an overstocked tank. But i do think that especially when stocking large fish, the fish should have more than enough room to turn around in the tank at the very least- reminds me of the time when one of my lfs once put a 10-11inch long plec in a 2.5ft long tank that was only 8inches wide, the poor plec couldn't even turn around in the tank and spent many weeks in there before it was sold .

 

[andywg]

as for the feeding live fish to the pacu
yes it illegal in the UK to feed a live vertibrate to another vertibrate, however
if the pacu has only been raised on live fish and will not accept anything else
then the lfs must feed it live fish for it to survive.

This is completely wrong Wolf as I have pointed out on many threads.

It is only illegal if it causes unnecessary suffering. If the feeder fish is swallowed in one go then you there is not going to be any breach as the suffering is not unnecessary. The discussions on the new Animal Welfare Act specifically stopped short of stopping the feeding of vertibrates being blanketly described as suffering to enable the keeping of more exotic species and/or the weaning of such species on to dead food (particularly in the exotic reptile area). Feeding a large animal to other predators so that the death is not swift (such as a fully grown oscar to a pack of RBP) is likely to come under the laws.

Furthermore, you have to show intent to cause suffering for a prosecution, and this is not an easy thing to do (I know, I used to have to try and evidence criminal intent).

And if you don't believe me, go out and read the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and see where it even mentions feeding of animals (I couldn't see anything). Also, a member of this board has previously contacted the RSPCA on this and they said it was not illegal if the feeding is for sustenance and not liek the case above of the RBP and oscars.

 

[Maximus]

At work we get people "dump" big fish on us all the time.

It's usally a 10" oscar or jaguar cichlid. They just put the polybox on the floor and walk
out. Theres nothing we can do but put it in a tank. We carn't just let it die.

But as Wolf said, It's usally only there for a few days before its passed/sold on



Maximus

 

[three-fingers]

I think I know the shop you are talking about, as I saw that poor pacu there a week or two ago .
I wasn't concerned about its living quarters, because like others have said - what else would they do?

I work at a different LFS on Saturdays, and I wouldn't have been there but I needed to buy some fish for a tank fast, and it was closest.
I really dislike that shop...If I'm thinking of the same one. I have been given lots of bad advice there in the past, and the people there either don't know about the animals they are selling, or they just don't care. IMO, they shouldent be allowed to sell reptiles (their turtles and tortoises).

Are you seriously saying they fed it live goldfish?! That's not what pacus would be eating as they are almost herbivores (more like omnivorous that eat a lot of greens though), in fact that's not what ANY fish should be eating (see here). If they are feeding pacus live goldfish, then it's either for their own purposes (must enjoy watching), or they are even bigger idiots than I would have imagined. The law is fuzzy around that area, but It's worth contacting the SSPCA .

 

[Gremily]

I'm pretty sure the goldfish did suffer as they managed to swim out of the mouth of the Pacu before being reswallowed.
I think I will phone them up and ask questions like The-Wolf said before calling the SSPCA.

three-fingers, it was the one down at Gorgie. Out of interest, which LFS do you work at as I'd rather go to a different shop.

 

[three-fingers]

If the goldfish could fit in the pacus mouth, that would mean you have less of a case...but I still feel feeding pacus live fish is bad practice and unnecessary. Especially goldfish.

I'll PM you .

 

[The-Wolf]

ok, Andy, point taken. (will try to remember for the future)
regardless of the legal question, it is bad customer service to do this in front of the public.
it should be done before or after the shop is open to them.

 

[andywg]

ok, Andy, point taken. (will try to remember for the future)

no worries. Just seems like no matter how often the legal stand point is posted, no one reads it and carries on thinking it is illegal.

regardless of the legal question, it is bad customer service to do this in front of the public.
it should be done before or after the shop is open to them.

Can't disagree there.

 

[Arimus]

Hm. I need to do something about an LFS I visited today....

In the corner of the shop they had one of those tall narrow column type tanks. Not too bad... if it had sensible inmates. This one had a large blackmoor and a goldfish - together with an adult catfish (not sure of the exact type, suspect common plec). The poor plec would not have been able to lie down on the base of the tank as the tank was narrower than it was long.

Needless to say I left without buying anything.