How To Stunt

ITHURTZ

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How exactly does a fish stunt. To many tank mates, when they get 1/3 the length of the tank etc etc. I know a fish doesnt choose to stunt itself but what leads to it stunting itself, besides the obvious fish is as wide as the tank.

I know when my sister won fish at the carny (2), they got placed in a 2 gal tank for years. They pretty much grew to the width of the tank. Eventually the black goldfish went to one of there friends down the street and I got the white one. Its in a 55gal now with other friends and it looks to be getting passed up on size. So again, how does a fish unstunt, and what would it take for a fish to stunt in a large aquarium. Does it need a perticular fish length x tank length x tank width so the fish knows it has room to get enourmous? The white one might be stunted for life I dunno, I havent compared width of the 2gal tank to the size it is now, but Im hoping it will grow more as its only 5"

A scientific break down would be cool:)
 
Lack of clean environment/poisoning (through toxins present in strong dilution due to small volume of water).
Lack of exercise.
Stress.
Disease.

Id guess many fish die before they get the chance to attain their full size.

You could say the main factor in stunted fish growth is human ignorance.

Pretty much any living organism kept from juvenile in the above poor circumstances will be stunted, and/or die before is 'normal'.....

Some, when rescued will recover, some will not.
 
I've read that some fish release hormones. The concentration of these hormones in the water tells the fishes body that it can reach X size before it will outgrow it's surroundings. Don't know the truth of this but it sounds plausible. A friend kept a common plec in a ten gallon for 3 years. It grew to 10". It's in a 55 now and is still about the same size.
 
I think thats unlikely, except possibly in species who live in temporary pools...... even then its unlikely as AFAIK those w ho do that grow LARGE (ie bigger than a few inches) have other survival methods for when the pool shrinks or is gone (breathe air, get out and leave, bury selves in mud).

In 99% of the fish we keep in captivity, their natural volume of water would be 100's of 1000's of gallons, there would be no need to develop such a hormone, so i cant see it happening!
 
nmonks said:
The whole issue of "stunted fish" is far from accepted within the hobby, and the science behing the idea is shaky, at best. Essentially, a stunted fish is one that is relatively small for its age. But just as with humans there are multiple reasons why someone might be small for his age, so it is with fish. While the size of the aquarium may be one factor, diet, genetics, exercise, and so on could also be issues as well. In lab experiments, only certain types of fish "stunt" when overcrowded in tanks, goldfish being one example. Other fish, such as cichlids, will reach full size regardless.

.....

The issue with stunting is that experimental evidence doesn't support the assumption that fish stunt in small tanks. There was a nice article about this in TFH magazine last year that reported how water changes -- not aquarium size -- are the key. They massively overstocked tanks containing things like discus and oscars, but performed complete water changes daily. Result: fully grown, healthy fish. Is this a good way to keep fish? Probably not, but it does make it clear that fish grow to their maximum size irrespective of the aquarium size if the water quality and diet provided are adequate. My own experiences of laboratory species such as Clarias catfish and tilapias supprts their point, as I have seen plenty of big fish in small tanks. The species that stunt are usually cyprinids (goldfish, for example) which have a very specific set of reactions to metabolites produced by other members of their species kept in close proximity.

So, while I don't advocate keeping fish in tanks too small for them, it isn't because of stunting. The issue is water quality, and the bigger the tank, the better the water quality will be. If you have to keep a fish in a tank a bit smaller than would be optimal, then under some circumstances you may be able to get away with it by increasing things like water changes. But still, that's a workaround rather than a recommendation.

......

Fella said:
I think science has shown with some goldfish that once they're moved from a small environment, once placed in a larger one they grow at a rapid rate, but I couldn't cite where exactly that is from.
I've heard this too, including being told about while at university by people researching fish farming. Fish grow continuously, although faster when young. They are growing in size until the day they die. This is obviously different to birds and mammals, which tend to get to a certain size at sexual maturity, then stop growing. Reptiles, on the other hand, grow continuously as well. Anyway, this means that if a fish is transferred to an environment where it can only grow slowly (e.g., little food) to one where it can grow rapidly (e.g., more food) it will "seem" to start growing again because its growth rate will increase dramatically.

With cyprinids -- like goldfish -- and some salmonids -- like trout -- there is a feedback system between individuals. I'm not sure if it has evolved for a good reason, or is merely an accidental thing that ends up being significant in fish farms and aquaria. Anyway, the biggest fish produces more chemicals (called metabolites) than the smaller fish, and these chemicals have more effect on the smaller fishes than the bigger ones. They slow down growth. So the bigger fish keeps getting bigger, but the smaller fish grow much more slowly. For fish farmers, the problem is ending up with a pond of fishes of which one specimen is big and all the others are small. What farmers want is lots of similar sized fishes they can sell easily. Tilapia don't do this, but trout and carp do (if I recall correctly).

The "just so" story is that this mechanism allows the dominant fish to stay the biggest, which is a good thing for the dominant fish. In the wild of course the sheer volumes of water dilute these metabolites so they don't usually have a very great effect, so a school of trout or carp can all reach a good size, which is important for their social behaviour and safety-in-numbers (a school of fish consisting of one big fish and a hundred tiny fish would be pointless!). But there might be just enough effect that it has a subtle, but significant, impact over time, giving the slightly bigger dominant fish access to more food, better mates, better hiding places, etc. In a pond (or aquarium) the dilution factor is so small that the metabolites build up and slow down growth much more significantly.

A single goldfish (say) kept in a very small bowl or tank, and given few water changes, absorbs its own metabolites, and these have the effect of slowing down its growth rate, as if it was sharing a pond with another big goldfish. Hence goldfish seeming to "grow" to the size of the tank they're kept in, especially if they are kept really badly.

Hope Neale doesn't mind me doing that.
 
A friend kept a common plec in a ten gallon for 3 years. It grew to 10". It's in a 55 now and is still about the same size.

Poor thing probably wont ever get to it's full size now. Seriously, some people - 10" and they didn't think "Oh you know, he might need a bigger tank". And to be honest, even 55g isn't big enough for a common. Commons kept in the right conditions should reach up to 12" in their first year, or year and a half. 3 years old, he should have been fully grown - nearer 15", maybe even 18".

My biggest common was kept in a 2ft/15g tank for 2 years in his previous home and only reached 6-7". He's been here a couple of months now, and is in a 180g, and is now heading for 10". We do 2-3 water changes a week, about 1/3 of the tank - and all our plecs get a good varied diet with plenty of fresh veggies and a good staple plec wafer (with other foods alongside as extras).
 
Jayjay - glad you copied and pasted that article!

I certainly seem to be witnessing that with my juvenile angels (although also wondering if its partly just that some were 'destined' to be bigger than others)....

Ive two tanks with angels, both plenty big enough for them - one has four juveniles in it, one has 4 adults and 2 juveniles.

Originally, all six juveniles were in together, when i decided that there wasnt really sufficient room for all six so moved the biggest of the babies out to the parents tank.

Now, the remaining four were all of a similar size (and of course all the same age and all siblings), but when i look at those four, one is markedly bigger than the other three.

Comparing them to their siblings who were moved to the larger tank (which you might think would increase their growth rate), those two are now a similar size to the smaller 3 in the smaller tank....

I would assume had the two been moved to a tank with no other angels, one would be larger than the other....

May move the biggest of the four, and see if one of the other three grows again......
 
My dad Has a koi pond, and he used to keep the koi in the fishtank thats now mine about 70uk gal
he hsa a golden ghost koi that is 17 years old, and its about 3feet long now, and it was moved from the tank when it was about 14"because my dad finished the pond.
however the fish grew downwards and became REALLY fat looking, so now weve got some 3ft long carp thats about 2ft deep.

just thought id share that. maybe it supports some theory or something i dno XD
 
My dad Has a koi pond, and he used to keep the koi in the fishtank thats now mine about 70uk gal
he hsa a golden ghost koi that is 17 years old, and its about 3feet long now, and it was moved from the tank when it was about 14"because my dad finished the pond.
however the fish grew downwards and became REALLY fat looking, so now weve got some 3ft long carp thats about 2ft deep.

just thought id share that. maybe it supports some theory or something i dno XD

That seems to be exactly like a wild carp (in dimensions).
 

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