Genetics.

[Sask Aquarist]

I'm sure many people entertain the though an idea of new species being created within your community aquarium. For instance, A betta crossed with a swordtail. Odd enough many people deem that impossible. With modern genetics though it would be possible to extract something such as a crowntail and implement it within the swordtail making a crown swordtail. The implications however could be quite extensive. Let's say the genetic modification gives you a excellent tail shape but the rest of the anatomy could suffer.

If one google searches "DIY genetics" many different things come up. The first is companies trying to sell extreme equipment like centrifuges and DNA analyzers for ridiculous prices. As one scrolls down you find articles about people taking bacteria and making them glow in compounds like melamine, In there kitchen with stuff bought from a hardware store. So really is the 'impossible' Actually possible? For instance, the domesticated dog was originally a Gray wolf that was tamed. From there on the wolf was bred into all the species we see today. So one would ask how is that possible?..You take a wolf and get a chihuahua. Why couldn't the same be done with fish.

Most would say: Species are not viable, hybridizing breeds would destroy pure breed's, Would cause genetic anomaly...so forth...

Discuss. =)

 

[StandbySetting]

The thing is making glow in the dark bacteria is a hell of a lot simpler with bacteria than it is with animals, bacterial DNA is contained in plasmids and restriction enzymes are used to cut segments out and plant segments in (In this instance splicing the glowing gene). It's all a matter of ethics, it would probably be possible, but incredibly expensive to do, and domesticating a grey wolf is very different to hybridizing two species together. Different breeds of dog are all the same species Canis familiaris domesticus.

What you describe is similar to what happened to the wild Betta splendens, they didn't start off all colourful, certain phenotypes were line bred to produce stronger expression with each generation.

My knowledge is somewhat limited though, Bignose will probably be able to offer a better reply.

 

[IcQb]

glofish!

I think this is a prime example of what you want to discuss.
Letting all ethics/pure breeds/... aside, it is very much possible to create new fish-species from 'genes'

In theory it's straightforward nowadays.
Find the gene responsible for the swordtail trait, obtain it from a cell and replicate.
Insert it in the genome of a crowntail (with a virus f.e.g.) and you obtain a new fish with a new tailshape.

There are difficulties obviously.
Is the tailshape determined by just one gene?
Do you need to get the crown-gene out before putting the sword-gene in?
Would the new fish suffer from its new trait? perhaps... In case of the glo-fish; I can't imagine it surviving in the wild. Catching that is like shooting lightbulbs at dark in a barrel

 

[Sask Aquarist]

I think the main problem is the equipment required to acquire such genes and transplanting them..

 

[ultimatebob]

sometimes i feel horrible when i see some. parrots that cant close their mouths, things like that. but i am also struck in awe by some, red texas, cherry red dragon flowerhorn. i would love to own, if there were no handicapps, an oscar and german ram mix. now that would be so awesome. but would also feel so bad if the fish had a handicap just because someone wanted to put a new version on the market.

 

[IcQb]

I think the main problem is the equipment required to acquire such genes and transplanting them..

Not so very much actually.
genes are created, most of the time in bacteria who replicate quite fast.
Then the DNA is extracted and dissolved in a buffer medium which is then frozen at at least -20°C and transported as such.

Transplanting them in fish eggs, i'm not an expert (no i HAVE to look it up) is probably done by electroporation.

Basically you just need a load of fresh fish eggs, you add the gene of interest and apply voltage. This opens the cells (hence; pore-ation), the DNA enters and SOME DNA is incorporated in the fish.
Then it's just a matter of selecting the fishes with the desired traits and breeding with them.

maybe it's oversimplified a little (there's trouble lurking around every corner), but that's basically how it will work


EDIT: the most difficult part is probably getting the gene you want.

 

[Sask Aquarist]

sometimes i feel horrible when i see some. parrots that cant close their mouths, things like that. but i am also struck in awe by some, red texas, cherry red dragon flowerhorn. i would love to own, if there were no handicapps, an oscar and german ram mix. now that would be so awesome. but would also feel so bad if the fish had a handicap just because someone wanted to put a new version on the market.

Of course Mutations that are bad often happen. However the sheer ability to create new breeds would be amazing. Genetics has always been in morale dispute amongst all kinds of cultures. The obvious religious reason is that it goes against gods creation of natural beings. Scientifically it's the fact of those "bad" mutations, Animal cruelty, etc...

However It would be very interesting to try if you could do it without a ridiculous lab.

 

[IcQb]

genetic manipulation is just a way of 'forced' breeding. You could obtain short-tailed fishes with long tails after years and years of breeding.
One selects the animals with the longest tail and breeds them with each other, and so on and so forth.

Ofcourse, during genetic manipulation 'mutations' arise. But the mutations from genetic manipulation that are 'wrong' generally do not lead to viable eggs/creatures.

Also, mutations happen naturally, sometimes with grave consequences; down syndrome, Huntington disiease, cancer predisposition, etc...

'funny fact', the seizure model mouse that was 'created' in the Jacson laboratories was not a genetically manipulated animal. It was a fluke of nature, born in the breeding center.
then it was crossed further and they developed a mouse line perfect for studying seizure-diseases in humans!

 

[Sask Aquarist]

genetic manipulation is just a way of 'forced' breeding. You could obtain short-tailed fishes with long tails after years and years of breeding.
One selects the animals with the longest tail and breeds them with each other, and so on and so forth.

Ofcourse, during genetic manipulation 'mutations' arise. But the mutations from genetic manipulation that are 'wrong' generally do not lead to viable eggs/creatures.

Also, mutations happen naturally, sometimes with grave consequences; down syndrome, Huntington disiease, cancer predisposition, etc...

'funny fact', the seizure model mouse that was 'created' in the Jacson laboratories was not a genetically manipulated animal. It was a fluke of nature, born in the breeding center.
then it was crossed further and they developed a mouse line perfect for studying seizure-diseases in humans!

I was also thinking that, If you get a mutation you could simply breed it out. Aka a different fin or color type. But the mutations always seem to make the fish weaker and weaker.

 

[IcQb]

That's not necessarily true!
The big problem is that mostly, people breed for one quality only, and disregard all the others

f.e.g; dogs have been bred to all sorts and sizes. The chihuahua for example has probably been bred for it's tiny size.
It's now so small that if you grab it by the fur on its back, its eyes could pop out. literally. besides that, it's just plain ugly... (in my opinion)

German sheperds have been bred to beautiful, hardworking dogs, yet they are predisposed to hip problems. Show strains have been bred with a sloping back, giving rise to much more back problems!

basic story; people are shortsighted and sometims plain stupid.

However; by breeding the 'created' fish with a so called wild type will give rise to stronger offspring. it's called heterozygous vigour.
Doing that, you could create a fish with a long tail, but with half of the 'healthy' genes from the wild type.

 

[Sask Aquarist]

That's not necessarily true!
The big problem is that mostly, people breed for one quality only, and disregard all the others

f.e.g; dogs have been bred to all sorts and sizes. The chihuahua for example has probably been bred for it's tiny size.
It's now so small that if you grab it by the fur on its back, its eyes could pop out. literally. besides that, it's just plain ugly... (in my opinion)

German sheperds have been bred to beautiful, hardworking dogs, yet they are predisposed to hip problems. Show strains have been bred with a sloping back, giving rise to much more back problems!

basic story; people are shortsighted and sometims plain stupid.

However; by breeding the 'created' fish with a so called wild type will give rise to stronger offspring. it's called heterozygous vigour.
Doing that, you could create a fish with a long tail, but with half of the 'healthy' genes from the wild type.

Ode to the exciting world of genetics =) I want a electric blue molly =(

 

[IcQb]

now that would make a stunning fish !


The world of genetics sure is a great and exciting world
I transfected some mice yesterday with some luciferase gene and US!

being a biotechnologist is cool

 

[Sask Aquarist]

now that would make a stunning fish !


The world of genetics sure is a great and exciting world
I transfected some mice yesterday with some luciferase gene and US!

being a biotechnologist is cool

Yeah I wish. Being a mechanic just lets me do more mechanically interesting things =)

 

[IcQb]

Yeah I wish. Being a mechanic just lets me do more mechanically interesting things =)

LOL...
My second choice of career would've been a mechanic
I'd just love to work on cars al day long. (maybe i romanticize a bit )

 

[afremont]

sometimes i feel horrible when i see some. parrots that cant close their mouths, things like that. but i am also struck in awe by some, red texas, cherry red dragon flowerhorn. i would love to own, if there were no handicapps, an oscar and german ram mix. now that would be so awesome. but would also feel so bad if the fish had a handicap just because someone wanted to put a new version on the market.

Of course Mutations that are bad often happen. However the sheer ability to create new breeds would be amazing. Genetics has always been in morale dispute amongst all kinds of cultures. The obvious religious reason is that it goes against gods creation of natural beings. Scientifically it's the fact of those "bad" mutations, Animal cruelty, etc...

However It would be very interesting to try if you could do it without a ridiculous lab.

Check out rotifers, you can experiment with them at home. They do DNA splicing all the time apparently. They even have the ability to pick up "broken pieces" of foreign DNA even from plants and fungi. They collect this DNA material from dead cells obviously since the DNA is fragmented. I didn't really read much about it, I was just trying to identity what I was looking at in a microscope. I plan to go back and study them some more because they are quite interesting creatures. Thought I'd bring it up here because of the topic, hope it fits.