Cleaning Issues...

[SouthernCross]

First a little info about my tank before I raise my problem:

It's a 3 foot tank, 148 litres or about 39 gallons. My filtration is a UGF and an HOB Aquaclear 50/200. I do have live plants, about 8, some are largish bunches.
My fish:
1x pearl gourami
4x cories
4x platies
10x cardinal tetras
+ some tiny pond snails (when I spot them in an accessible spot, they are removed (have not been able to ever get them all out) - I'd say there's probably only ever a half dozen really small ones at a time).

My problem concerns cleaning...

Now, my water always looks absolutely CRYSTAL clear. I mean that. My algae problems for the most part have settled down. Water parameters are steady, tank has been cycled since start of March.

Clear water? Great! But the problem is...
When I do my weekly gravel vac, I find myself having to take out at least 6 full big buckets of water (nearly 50% of my tank!) when I clean beacuse there seems to be SO MUCH CRAP in the gravel. And that's still leaving some behind!

It seems to me that most people only change about 10-20% of their water a week... I don't think any of my fish are known to be 'dirty' fish so I don't really understand why its such a massive cleaning job for me every week. It's only over the last month to 6 wks or so its turned into a bigger ordeal, before that I was getting away with only 3 buckets (a few less fish then though too).

So what's the go? I know I'm not overstocked - in fact, I was hoping to increase my stocking perhaps by some female pearls and a couple more cories. But not if I can't handle any more of a crapload, so to speak.

Should I maybe get another HOB, or even a bigger one than the one I have? Only thing is I don't know how my gourami(s) would go with a heap more current blowing around in the tank.

Is this normal, or something to be worried about, or what? How much crap do you guys get out of your tanks every week?

 

[Tolak]

Gravel is a nasty filth collector, ugf makes it all the worse. I don't think there is any way to get all the muck out of it, and you will do a 50% water change trying. I have no idea how anyone gets gravel reasonably clean with a 10% to 20% weekly water change, I pull out that much doing bare bottom tanks. The few tanks I have with gravel do get 50% changes weekly, and most of that is with a vac.

 

[DevUK]

Might be worth investing in a battery powered vac so you can do it to your hearts content without removing any water

I bought a fairly cheap one from Pets at Home recently and it works really well. Cost me about £11 (plus some decent duracel batteries).

 

[SouthernCross]

Gravel is a nasty filth collector, ugf makes it all the worse. I don't think there is any way to get all the muck out of it, and you will do a 50% water change trying. I have no idea how anyone gets gravel reasonably clean with a 10% to 20% weekly water change, I pull out that much doing bare bottom tanks. The few tanks I have with gravel do get 50% changes weekly, and most of that is with a vac.

So my tank is normal then? And I'm doing the right thing and its the others who boast about such small water changes that are wrong? I was just thinking it was bad to leave that much crud sitting in the gravel, I thought if I left too much there it would start causing ammonia/nitrite problems. Would a few more fish make a huge difference? Would upgrading my filtration help?

Might be worth investing in a battery powered vac so you can do it to your hearts content without removing any water

I bought a fairly cheap one from Pets at Home recently and it works really well. Cost me about £11 (plus some decent duracel batteries).

How exactly do these work without removing water from the tank??? I'm a bit limited product-wise as an Australian - I've just done a search of one of my online shops - all are traditional syphon style vacs except this one <--is that the type of thing you mean? My tank is 18" deep, so not sure if that is suitable, and again not really understanding how it works...

 

[borissimo]

I have the same problem with one of my tanks but not the other.

Both are the same size, both have sand substrate.

One contains gouramis, rainbows, corys, bristlenose, ruby shark and a rather large Pleco. The latter produces a lot of poo, but I don't think it is all his. I try and take a bucketful every evening to try and get the bulk of it out.

The other tank has bala sharks, clown loaches, corys, bristlenose and angel fish. You literally have to hunt for the poo in their substrate. I don't know what they do with it.

 

[Tolak]

Removing the ugf will help, as well as having less gravel. The ugf is pulling waste into the gravel, without it more of it will be picked up by the other filter.

One of my show tanks is a 72 gallon with an oscar & a common plec. It has a pair of AC 70's along with an Ehein 2213 for filtration. Being in the family room it has some gravel, large marble size one layer thick. The tank bottom shows through when the plec moves it, or when the oscar spits it at the plec. Less gravel is much easier to keep clean, as I'm hitting the tank bottom every time without having to dig around.

 

[SouthernCross]

From my understanding about how the UGF works, by removing it wouldn't I would be eliminating a LOT of the beneficial bacteria in my system? Yes, it pulls it down, but I think it does break down a lot of poo, as when I look at what I've removed, its not so much big pieces of poop but a lot of finer brown particles. Isn't crap going to settle in the gravel anyway, so why not have the UGF working on it?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a UGF might increase the load I could have in the tank quite significant due to the large amount of biological filtration it supposedly provides. I've read a lot about the UGF debate, a lot of people seem to write them off as useless rubbish, and other things I've read promote them a lot, some with the reasons I've stated above as well as other benefits, such as clear water. The whole thing has left me torn about it. I know once a year I'll have to pull it out for a proper clean, but my mind is still undecided about whether its worth it. It was what was sold with the tank to me when I was a newbie and knew nothing about what I was doing, . As I said, I added the HOB a good while ago, but left the UGF running too.

I do have plants (and I like having them, for aesthetic reasons, as well as the benefits they provide), so I couldn't really have a much thinner layer of gravel or they wouldn't be able to stay in...

 

[DevUK]

How exactly do these work without removing water from the tank??? I'm a bit limited product-wise as an Australian - I've just done a search of one of my online shops - all are traditional syphon style vacs except this one <--is that the type of thing you mean? My tank is 18" deep, so not sure if that is suitable, and again not really understanding how it works...

Thats the exact one I have

It has a little impellor in it which is run by a little motor. It literally sucks water/crud up the tube and out through a small cloth bag which lets the water out but keeps the fish poop in. Same idea as a vaccume cleaner sucking air and dirt off your carpet, the airescapes whilest the dirt stays in the hoover bag.

 

[SouthernCross]

How exactly do these work without removing water from the tank??? I'm a bit limited product-wise as an Australian - I've just done a search of one of my online shops - all are traditional syphon style vacs except this one <--is that the type of thing you mean? My tank is 18" deep, so not sure if that is suitable, and again not really understanding how it works...

Thats the exact one I have

It has a little impellor in it which is run by a little motor. It literally sucks water/crud up the tube and out through a small cloth bag which lets the water out but keeps the fish poop in. Same idea as a vaccume cleaner sucking air and dirt off your carpet, the airescapes whilest the dirt stays in the hoover bag.

Ahhh ok that sounds cool. Thanks for your help! But whats with the depth limits? Can you not submerse the whole thing or something? Don't want to get it if t can't even get to the bottom of the tank...

It would be great if I could use something like this - drought and limiting water usage is a big thing in my country and if I don't have to be throwing out more water than necessary (i.e. only change 20% of the actual water while still being able to clean out the crud) it would be ideal...

 

[DevUK]

The vac has a water level line which you shouldn't put it any deeper than (ie, you don't want to water log the battery/motor). This is at the bottom of the main section. The tubes connect to that part and thats how deep it'll go (telescopic, it'll strech to a max length of 40cm).

It works great on my 12" deep aquarium

 

[SouthernCross]

Mine's 18". The website I linked above says 16".

The world is against me...

But thanks again anyway.

 

[treelo]

damnit

i bought one that removes water also from a LFS today and was asking about these sort of crap removers, he advised me not to buy one because they were useless and didnt work

 

[morgan]

You can easily extend the gravel vac with some tubing of the same size. I have done this after ruining a gravel vac by using it in a too deep tank. I wondered if the suction might be too weak then, but it wasn't. My tank is 2 feet deep. HTH.

 

[Tolak]

From my understanding about how the UGF works, by removing it wouldn't I would be eliminating a LOT of the beneficial bacteria in my system? Yes, it pulls it down, but I think it does break down a lot of poo, as when I look at what I've removed, its not so much big pieces of poop but a lot of finer brown particles. Isn't crap going to settle in the gravel anyway, so why not have the UGF working on it?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a UGF might increase the load I could have in the tank quite significant due to the large amount of biological filtration it supposedly provides. I've read a lot about the UGF debate, a lot of people seem to write them off as useless rubbish, and other things I've read promote them a lot, some with the reasons I've stated above as well as other benefits, such as clear water. The whole thing has left me torn about it. I know once a year I'll have to pull it out for a proper clean, but my mind is still undecided about whether its worth it. It was what was sold with the tank to me when I was a newbie and knew nothing about what I was doing, . As I said, I added the HOB a good while ago, but left the UGF running too.

I do have plants (and I like having them, for aesthetic reasons, as well as the benefits they provide), so I couldn't really have a much thinner layer of gravel or they wouldn't be able to stay in...

What you would actually be doing is a teardown, then replacing the gravel without the filter plates. The ugf will break it down into smaller particles as it works it's way into the gravel, but it is still in there. This is the reason you find fine mud-like silt under the ugf plates when you do a teardown.

Your ugf does provide good bio filtration, but at a cost. Since you've read up on the advantages & disadvantages of ugf no detail is needed. The AC 200 will provide plenty of bio filtration for that tank, I used to run them on overstocked bare 29 gallons. I switched to a central air system a while back, trying to cut back the electric bill, as well as the tangle of 20 more cord needing to be plugged in.

What you might want to try is pulling off one of the uplift tubes on your ugf, and attacing the apprpriate sized hose for siphoning. This increase in water flow will pull the waste out from beneath the ugf plates, and pull waste from deeper down in the gravel.

Another trick is powerheads on the bottom. These will keep waste from settling on the bottom, allowing the hob to pick them up.

If you are concerned about water usage, siphon the water into 5 gallon buckets. Let it sit for a couple of hours, the waste will mostly settle to the bottom. Take water from the top & add it to the tank.

 

[SouthernCross]

Thanks for all the extra tips guys.

I might still pick one of those vacs up. After I remove my 20% for the water change, it should be 'shallow' enough so I can use one of those to give the gravel a really good clean over.

Tolak, I'd read something similar about reversing the flow or directing flow in one end and out the other to force the sludge underneath out as way of cleaning it.

I think the true test will be when I do my annual teardown (due in Feb, but will probably do it when I have plenty of time in the Xmas hols), how much I'm scared by what I see festering underneath, . That may be the decider for whether I put it back in or not.

Thanks guys

P.S. If anyone else is still reading this and has cleaning experiences relevant to this discussion (e.g. how much crap YOU have) still keen to hear from you.