Algone

[celaeno]

has anyone here ever used algone? if so, please describe your experience with it.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

With algae, its much better to find and treat the source of the problem rather than use chemicals to temporarily kill the algae off- unless you find the source of the algae problem, it will just keep on coming back every time you stop treating it, and to be honest no one wants to be constantly medicating their tank/s.
Which tank do you have the algae problem in (is you sig info quite update?) and how long has it been set up? What are the nitrate levels in the tank plus do you have any healthy live plants in it, and how long do you leave the tank lights on per day on average?

 

[Bignose]

Tokis, please don't take this personally, but before the standard canned response, you should at least look at what the product is. Algone is not a chemical to put in your water to kill algae. It is a pouch of nitrate-adsorbing particles that try to limit the amount of nitrate available so that algae has less of a chance to grow.

That said, Tokis is 100% right in that treating the source of the problem is far superior to applying a band-aid solution. In addition to his questions, you need to look at your water-change schedule (20-25% a week is usually pretty good). How much you are feeding -- if you are over feeding, those are just nutrients for algae to thrive on.

Finally, these adsorbing products typically claim much more than they can provide. The simple fact is, most adsorbing products are going to be completely saturated withing a few days, if not a few hours. Carbon, algone, ion-exchange pillows -- they all do their jobs for a short time. But then, they are completely saturated can cannot adsorb any more. So, unless you want to buy enough pouches to put a new one in every 3 days or so, you are not really going to receive much benefit from using algone. Algone would love you to be that regular of a customer, but why spend all that money when most likely you can eliminate or at least severly reduce the amount of algae by attacking the problem at the source. So, if you will let the forum members help you diagnose the problem (by answering the questions posted above), I think that we can help you be rid of most if not all of your algae problem.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Tokis, please don't take this personally, but before the standard canned response, you should at least look at what the product is. Algone is not a chemical to put in your water to kill algae. It is a pouch of nitrate-adsorbing particles that try to limit the amount of nitrate available so that algae has less of a chance to grow.

That said, Tokis is 100% right in that treating the source of the problem is far superior to applying a band-aid solution. In addition to his questions, you need to look at your water-change schedule (20-25% a week is usually pretty good). How much you are feeding -- if you are over feeding, those are just nutrients for algae to thrive on.

Finally, these adsorbing products typically claim much more than they can provide. The simple fact is, most adsorbing products are going to be completely saturated withing a few days, if not a few hours. Carbon, algone, ion-exchange pillows -- they all do their jobs for a short time. But then, they are completely saturated can cannot adsorb any more. So, unless you want to buy enough pouches to put a new one in every 3 days or so, you are not really going to receive much benefit from using algone. Algone would love you to be that regular of a customer, but why spend all that money when most likely you can eliminate or at least severly reduce the amount of algae by attacking the problem at the source. So, if you will let the forum members help you diagnose the problem (by answering the questions posted above), I think that we can help you be rid of most if not all of your algae problem.

No offense taken, i shouldn't have assumed it was chemical based like the vast majority of other algae killing brands out there- according to the Algone website though its "enzymes which break down proteins and carbohydrates, containing them in insoluble complex structures before mineralization through heterotrophic bacteria. Biochemical compounds oxidize organic/inorganic pollutants directly" which makes it work though;

http/www.algone.com/greenwater.php

Even from the algone website, they talk much on finding the source of the algae problem. You might think my initial response "canned" but its basically correct none the less as you said .

 

[Bignose]

No offense taken, i shouldn't have assumed it was chemical based like the vast majority of other algae killing brands out there- according to the Algone website though its "enzymes which break down proteins and carbohydrates, containing them in insoluble complex structures before mineralization through heterotrophic bacteria. Biochemical compounds oxidize organic/inorganic pollutants directly" which makes it work though;

I actually don't believe that, I still think that they are just nitrate adsorbing. How do these bacteria live on the hard particles inside a pouch without any food? I could very well be wrong however, maybe I am missing something. If this is how they work, however, I think that I like the idea of them even less now, since they seem to be be pretty broad and non-discriminately acting. There are several very useful organic compounds that I want in my tank. Organic compounds have a very nice tendency to bind up with heavy metals, for example. When the metals are bound up by organics, they are much easier for plants to take them up, so the plants get their necessary trace minerals far easier than without the organic chemicals.

Perhaps the most important thing about organically bound-up heavy metals is that they are far, far less toxic to fish when bound up that unbound. The organics are in effect acting as shield protecting the fish from heavy metals.

There are several other useful things organic chemicals do. Organics help stimulate the growth of bioflim in a tank. A lot of the cycling bacteria live in the biofilm, not to mention that the biolfilm is a rich food source for fry,snails, etc. Plecos consume the biofilm when they rasp on wood, too. Finally, fish communicate with one another via chemical signals, which are definitely organic. it is unclear what all these signals are, but the fish are releasing these chemicals for a reason. The fish also take in chemical signals from anything alive/growing in the tank. It seems to me that if algone destroys all organics, it will destroy all of these lines of chemical information.

I wholeheartedly still stick by investigating the source of the algae first, it will be much less costly and maybe even easier.

p.s. Tokis, I've been caught using canned responses too, there are so many of these products out there it is impossible to keep up with all of them and, ya know, have a normal life. I'm just lucky I knew what algone was before since I had knew a guy who swore by them. What is great, and what makes the canned responses sooooo good, is that even though you got the method of the product wrong, the core advice is still spot on. So long as that core nugget of knowledge is sound, it almost doesn't matter what the problem is.

 

[celaeno]

Which tank do you have the algae problem in (is you sig info quite update?) and how long has it been set up? What are the nitrate levels in the tank plus do you have any healthy live plants in it, and how long do you leave the tank lights on per day on average?

yes, my sig is up to date. i have the green water problem in my 10 gallon and have had it since sept '06. it has been set up for a little over a year. nitrate reading is 10ppm. for some reason, it increased from 7.5ppm after putting in the algone pouch. no plants. i leave the light on only for 5 minutes before and during feeding (twice a day).

 

[Bignose]

Firstly, I'd stop feeding twice a day. Once is day is plenty, in fact, once every other day is pretty good until you get this algae problem cleared up. How much are you feeding? Apart from any sinking tablets for bottom feeders, is all the food eaten in 2-3 mintues? Food that is missed will just turn into an all-the-algae-can-eat buffet.

Secondly, how often and how large are you water changes?

Thirdly, fish need more than 20 mins of light a day. Just like people, fish need Vitamin D, and also just like people, the primary source of Vitamin D for fish is through the body generating its own. But, the body needs light to stimulate the production of vitamin D, so we and your fish need long periods of light to stimulate production of a necessary vitamin.

Fourthly, only 20 mins of light may be the problem here. Algae absolutely loves dim lighting. The tank is probably getting lots of dim lighting from the windows/room lights, but nothing too bright either.

Here is my recommendation for a plan of attack (others may have something different, so you pick what you think will be best for you):

I think that first you should try a black-out to kill off the green algae that is in there. You want to cover the tank with thick blankers so that no light gets in at all, for about 3 days. Don't even open the lid, the fish do not need to eat for 3 days. it sounds like they are extremely well fed right now. They will easily survive three days without food. This should kill off a lot of the algae. Now, you want to do large water changes after that so you get all the dead algae and crud out of the tank. I am talking large as in 3 straight days of 50% water changes. During this time, I would stop by the LFS and pick up some cheap aquatic plants (real, not fake!). Hornwort is very fast growing, java fern and java moss is almost indestructible, swords are an aquarium staple. Pick out some that you like. Java fern anf moss are real nice since they don't have to be planted, so you don't need a little pot or sand substrate to provide for them. The reason for live plants is that they will outcompete the algae for resources, effectively starving the algae. Note that this is what algone claims to do, just instead of using a chemical solution, you use the exact same solution that nature uses! Finally, for the plants and fish, after the black-out, you will want the lights to be on for at least 8 hours and maybe even up to 12 hours a day. I recommend going to the hardware store and getting a timer for the lights, so you don't have to remember to switch them on and off every day.

Between the live plants and reduced feedings, I suspect you will significantly less algae in no time.

 

[mark.w.jones]

Agreed. There are loads of myths about algae. Most popularly that too much light causes it. As far as I'm concerned the best cure for algae is fast growing plants, the more the better. Ideally you will plant on 50% of your substrate. Remove pots, plastic cases, wool. etc from around roots before you plant. Trim off any dead looking roots and leaves. Bury roots in substrate. If plants keep floating try leaving them to float in the top of your tank for a while to see if they'll sink eventually. Or temporarily hold them down with lead weight until roots take hold. Species like java fern are not suitable for planting in substrate and should be tied to rocks or wood with cotton until roots take hold. In terms of fast growing species I would also suggest Vallisneria spiralis ''Tiger,'' Thai onion plants and limnophila sessiliflora.

http/www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9

http/www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_algae.php

Are two good articles about algae control.

 

[Underwurlde]

You guys are taking in generic terms re: Algae per-se. I don't think this is ideal: there are many different types of algae, each thriving / triggered by non-generic (varying) conditions.

I think a black-out is only really used to treat BGA? At least that's my reading.

caleno has mentioned 'Green Water':
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=169325
May help, but as mentioned, prevention is better than cure.

There are many recent threads that are discussing this 'Green Water'.... do a search...

Andy

BTW, Generically speaking I think the majority of algae problems are caused by high lighting conditions that people start using when going to planted set-ups, induced by a lack of plants and a lack of / varying CO2 issues.

 

[celaeno]

Firstly, I'd stop feeding twice a day. Once is day is plenty, in fact, once every other day is pretty good until you get this algae problem cleared up. How much are you feeding? Apart from any sinking tablets for bottom feeders, is all the food eaten in 2-3 mintues? Food that is missed will just turn into an all-the-algae-can-eat buffet.

Secondly, how often and how large are you water changes?

Thirdly, fish need more than 20 mins of light a day. Just like people, fish need Vitamin D, and also just like people, the primary source of Vitamin D for fish is through the body generating its own. But, the body needs light to stimulate the production of vitamin D, so we and your fish need long periods of light to stimulate production of a necessary vitamin.

Fourthly, only 20 mins of light may be the problem here. Algae absolutely loves dim lighting. The tank is probably getting lots of dim lighting from the windows/room lights, but nothing too bright either.

nitrates are only 10 ppm. all fish in my 10 gallon are fed tetra color flakes. the cories take an hour or more to eat up all the food because that's just how they eat - slowly. i only feed 2 small pinches twice a day, but i will reduce the feedings to once a day. the juvenile krib is on the still water side of the tank divider (i have a power filter) and only comes up for food at night. i know, because by morning it's all gone. nevertheless, i don't know when exactly at night he eats it, so that may contribute, as you said, to the green water problem. nothing i can do about the krib as he needs to eat too. btw the tank is bare-bottom.

water changes are once a week, 25%. however, i will only be filling up evaporated water during treatment with algone as it doesn't recommend water changes in excess of 10-15% during treatment, as they claim algae spores are readily available in tap water.

i found that putting the light on all day causes green water to get out of control. that is the only reason i limit it to 20 minutes a day. from my experience, green water algae absolutely loves lighting. i heard from algone's site that their chlorophyll only becomes transparent when there is no direct light source (tank lights) and returns to green when it has been exposed to enough light for enough time.

 

[celaeno]

could my green water problem have been caused by my lighting? this is the lighting i have...

http/www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl36...t5050lamp10watt

will switching to this lighting be better?

http/www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl36...colormaxlamp10w

 

[YoungFishBreeder]

now that i have a daphnia culture im finding it hard to get green water...